lkjy wrote:
Wanna know something funny?
SEMENYA WAS CLEARED TO COMPETE IN RIO.
If slow Bishop didn't like it, she could have protested. But she knows Semenya is a woman.
1. Nobody here is arguing that Semenya was cleared to compete in Rio, although I do agree with you that it sounds funny to say that aloud.
2. A single athlete cannot protest and get another cleared competitor to not compete.
3. Melissa Bishop finished fourth in an Olympic final. That is not slow.
These posters blaming women for not running fast enough times - what do you think of the Olympic men's 10,000m winning time?
Sheer misogynism, as is the promoting of the male athletes in the women's 800m. It isn't that long since women were banned from running further than 800m, now after a few decades of relatively open competition (interspersed with doping of course) we now see a move back towards restricting women in sports by letting men run against them.
Semenya is a cheater who has made a conscious decision to race on unequal terms against his opponents. There is nothing to stop Semenya improving his times and running against his fellow male athletes. But of course that would ruin Semenya's athletics career, because all of this fuss is about a very mediocre male athlete with deformed male genitalia. And women's athletics is being sacrificed for this and a few other similar individuals' sakes, and of course for a few mentally disturbed individuals who can promote their own egos by pretending to be politically correct and caring.
Athletics overall is damaged by this latest farce and is becoming a joke sport. If you want to compete on reasonably fair terms, you would be advised to avoid athletics and cycling at the very least.
The "women's" 800m at Rio was probably the biggest reason why I didn't watch a single second of Olympics coverage this past year and probably won't be watching in the future.
Rampant doping and corruption within the IOC are the other main reasons why I can no longer support the Games with my viewership.
If I'm the only one doing this, I'm sure I won't be missed but hopefully others are taking a similar stand.
fan of fair competition wrote:
The "women's" 800m at Rio was probably the biggest reason why I didn't watch a single second of Olympics coverage this past year and probably won't be watching in the future.
Rampant doping and corruption within the IOC are the other main reasons why I can no longer support the Games with my viewership.
If I'm the only one doing this, I'm sure I won't be missed but hopefully others are taking a similar stand.
Nobody cares. You missed some good TV. Nobody missed your input.
Hey Expat, what about males that have extraordinary high levels of testosterone naturally in their system? What about those freaks? Who do they get to compete against? Who's to say that in 5 years we don't realize that BOLT was more a "man" than the guys he raced. What then?
fan of fair competition wrote:
The "women's" 800m at Rio was probably the biggest reason why I didn't watch a single second of Olympics coverage this past year and probably won't be watching in the future.
Rampant doping and corruption within the IOC are the other main reasons why I can no longer support the Games with my viewership.
If I'm the only one doing this, I'm sure I won't be missed but hopefully others are taking a similar stand.
YOU'RE NOT ALONE!!!
Seriously, I thought I was the only one.
This is actually far greater than Caster Semenya. This has a lot to do with the history of his nation of South Africa.
For the sake of the younger readers on this forum, I will (very) briefly describe what has happened in that country:
South Africa is a nation that used to be under British rule, until they gained their independence in 1961. The country is currently approx 90% black and coloured and 8% white and a small minority of people from India. In South Africa dark skinned blacks are referred to as ‘black’, while light skinned blacks are referred to as ‘coloured’.
Now a remnant of British colonialism was a horrible set of laws known as ‘Apartheid’. Under Apartheid, millions of non-white South Africans were removed from their homes, and forced into segregated neighbourhoods.
Non-white political representation was eliminated in 1970, and black people were deprived of their citizenship. The government segregated education and medical care and provided black people with services that were inferior to those of white people. Blacks were denied access to higher education and good paying jobs.
Apartheid sparked significant resistance, violence, and protests and (just like in the U.S.) civil rights activists and leaders arose.
Finally, in 1990 President F.W. de Klerk began negotiations to end Apartheid, resulting in elections in 1994, won by Nelson Mandela.
Denzel Washington plays the role of anti-Apartheid activist Steven Biko in the 1987 movie ‘Cry Freedom’. Worth seeing:
, also Sidney Poitier plays the role of Nelson Mandela in the film ‘Mandela and de Klerk’:
I hope this gives some insight into that country. Although very brief, these are things I learned (not from school) but from watching movies, documentaries and reading about Apartheid.
I also wanted to let the younger readers know about a man from South Africa who immigrated to Ontario and represented Canada in (coincidentally) the 800m, at the 1992 Olympic Games. His name is Freddie Williams. I met him a few times and he told his story about how back in South Africa we would not be allowed to compete at track meets because he was classified as ‘coloured’. He immigrated to Mississauga, Ontario and eventually broke the Canadian record for the 800m by running 1:45.1 in 1993 at the World Championships.
So in conclusion:
This issue, if you look at it at face value, seems unfair (to some of us). That Caster is being allowed to compete with such an advantage. But if you look at it from historical perspective, you can see why a post-apartheid South African government is so sensitive to anything that they may consider as discrimination to their black or coloured people.
I also truly believe that the IAAF is scared and is being very careful not to cause any problems with race relations with South Africa and African countries in general. The IAAF already has many problems with PED use among track and field athletes. The last thing they want is a lawsuit with several nations from a continent that has significant representation in their sport.
So as you can see, this Semenya issue is much more complicated than just testosterone levels.
I hope the younger readers take some time to watch some movies and documentaries about Apartheid to get a better understanding of this issue. Here is a very well compiled list:
http://www.imdb.com/list/ls051288693/
P.S. Just one more historical tid bit I want to share. In 1985 a group of singers from the U.S. did an anti-Apartheid protest song called ‘Ain’t gonna play Sun City’. See if you recognize the singers —>
didn't watch at all wrote:
fan of fair competition wrote:The "women's" 800m at Rio was probably the biggest reason why I didn't watch a single second of Olympics coverage this past year and probably won't be watching in the future.
Rampant doping and corruption within the IOC are the other main reasons why I can no longer support the Games with my viewership.
If I'm the only one doing this, I'm sure I won't be missed but hopefully others are taking a similar stand.
YOU'RE NOT ALONE!!!
Seriously, I thought I was the only one.
YOU'RE BOTH NOT ALONE, I have not watched a second of the last 2 Olympic Games and have watched none of the athletics world champs for the last 7 years, I also no longer watch or follow the tour de France or any of the big marathons. The authorities have done nothing about doping and cheating in these sports (look at Sky and Wiggins in the aftermath of Armstrong, look at Radcliffe, look at Dibaba sisters and Jama Aden's group all allowed to continue competing despite being practically caught injecting themselves with EPO etc etc) and yet they continue to market these sports as being clean sports. Well they are lying, and I don't want to give money to these liars. The only way I can do this is to boycott their product. If they have to deal with empty stadiums and no one watching them on TV then maybe they will get the message.
This is a case where the next generation will look back on and say, "my Gosh these people were some kind of retarded to allow men posing as women to race women and steal their glory. I can't believe society actually put up with that crap."
TACKYmfer wrote:
This is a case where the next generation will look back on and say, "my Gosh these people were some kind of retarded to allow men posing as women to race women and steal their glory. I can't believe society actually put up with that crap."
No this stuff has been going on since the beginning of women's athletics:
http://mentalfloss.com/article/69911/how-olympic-sprinter-stella-walsh-nearly-lost-her-medals-because-her-autopsyhttp://transgriot.blogspot.fr/2011/11/olympic-gender-drama-press-sisters.htmlI get what you're saying about South Africa being overly sensitive about race due to Apartheid, but remember, this is also a country that selected Oscar Pistorius - a white male from a seemingly well-off family - to represent them in the 400m.
That decision was every bit as stupid as selecting Caster to compete for them as a woman. The only reason why Pistorius wasn't as controversial a figure as Semenya was due to the fact that he was never a serious contender for a medal.
South Africa has become a complete joke in the sport of Athletics!
lkjy wrote:
Hey Expat, what about males that have extraordinary high levels of testosterone naturally in their system? What about those freaks? Who do they get to compete against? Who's to say that in 5 years we don't realize that BOLT was more a "man" than the guys he raced. What then?
The male category is by definition the open category. Anything and anyone, other than intentional PED use, is allowed. The women's category is by definition a protected category where males cannot complete. Want to create another category for Intersex? Go right ahead. I think 99.9% of the people on these boards would have no problem with that. The problem is letting people with partial "maleness" compete in the women's category. There is NO POINT to having a protected category for just women UNLESS YOU RESERVE THAT CATEGORY FOR JUST WOMEN. It is such a simple concept that I don't know why this discussion has to continue on as it does.
I agree! Womens races are ONLY for real women. Not for people who want to define themselves as women, despite having endogenous testicles!
It is rather interesting as to the fact that it was an Indian sprinter's case that actually led to the rule being changed:
In the case of Dutee Chand, nobody is worked up about it, because she did not (and had no chance to) take a medal away from anyone. She did indeed qualify for the Olympic Games in the 100m by running under the standard of 11.30 (her PB is 11.24). But in the opening heat of the 100m at the Games, she ran a disappointing 11.69. When interviewed she said she had a 36 hour flight from India to Brazil and this combined with the grand stage of the Games made her nervous and resulted in a poor performance.
People cheered for her when she qualified (as did I) because it was the first time since 1984 that a woman from India qualified for the Olympic Games in a track event. Yes this is true.
Also Dutee Chand's case of hyperandrogenism is in the category of AIS (Androgen insensitivity syndrome). AIS people have a mutation which prevents testosterone (T) from being absorbed by the body; hence there will be plenty of T in the blood, but virtually none in other cells. Those with AIS usually look like any other woman from the outside. Since there is no T uptake in the body, there is no athletic advantage from the excess T in their blood.
Now lets discuss the official statement released to the press by the Court of Arbitration for Sport :
http://www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/Media_Release_3759_FINAL.pdf
They state:
"In the absence of such evidence, the CAS Panel was unable to conclude that hyperandrogenic female athletes may benefit from such a significant performance advantage".
Well, in my humble opinion, this was a classic case of the Court of Arbitration for Sport 'kicking the can down the road'. They basically are saying 'look we don't know' so lets re-visit this in two years. Or more likely 'we don't want to make a decision on this right now, because this is too controversial to tackle'.
C'mon really? You don't have any qualified Endocrinologist on your panel who can tell you that the OTHER type of Hyperandrogenism is Five alpha reductase deficiency (5-ARD)?
You don't know if higher levels of testosterone improve athletic performance in 5-ARD? Of course they do! What evidence are they requiring? Here is the evidence --> Semenya is runnning 1;55 without her testosterone lowering meds. When she was on them, she was running close to 2:00.
Why?
Because those born with 5-ARD have a mutation which prevents the creation of dihydrotestosterone, or DHT, in the body. DHT is a powerful androgen which triggers the formation of male genitalia. Thus, 5-ARD individuals (like Semenya, Niyonsaba and Wambui) are often assigned female gender. Unlike AIS people, however, those with 5-ARD are affected by the T in their system and become much more masculine at puberty. This can give them a very large athletic advantage over other women."
Caster Semenya chooses to compete, knowing that her higher levels of testosterone are giving her a clear advantage. She has refused to normalise her testosterone levels. That . . . is a clear case of the violation of fair play.
To "Bill Burr"
While it is nice to see you quote from the article I wrote for Let'srun, I should clarify a few things.
First of all, there are a great many types of XY DSDs: I gave details about AIS and 5-ARD because these two conditions are so dissimilar, and both DSDs play an important role in track and field, but other DSDs are important too.
Second, none of us (other than those with access to medical records) know what DSD Chand, Semenya or others have. The presumption that Chand has AIS and Semenya has 5-ARD is not unreasonable, but hardly proven.
Those intersex women who go through puberty with high levels of functional testosterone (such as, but not limited to, those with 5-ARD) often wind up with more masculine features, but one should not diagnose these DSDs simply based on appearance, nor should one infer the level of advantage based on appearance . For instance, Chris Solinski is much more masculine-appearing than Galen Rupp and yet both have broken 27 minutes for 10K.
nobody cares that you boycotted watching the olympics
zero effect wrote:
nobody cares that you boycotted watching the olympics
Do you know what I mean? Who are these sad-cases thinking they are important for boycotting the entire Olympics because they don't like Caster fcking Semenya.
I enjoyed the beach volleyball very much.
tgirl wrote:
To "Bill Burr"
While it is nice to see you quote from the article I wrote for Let'srun, I should clarify a few things.
First of all, there are a great many types of XY DSDs: I gave details about AIS and 5-ARD because these two conditions are so dissimilar, and both DSDs play an important role in track and field, but other DSDs are important too.
Second, none of us (other than those with access to medical records) know what DSD Chand, Semenya or others have. The presumption that Chand has AIS and Semenya has 5-ARD is not unreasonable, but hardly proven.
Those intersex women who go through puberty with high levels of functional testosterone (such as, but not limited to, those with 5-ARD) often wind up with more masculine features, but one should not diagnose these DSDs simply based on appearance, nor should one infer the level of advantage based on appearance . For instance, Chris Solinski is much more masculine-appearing than Galen Rupp and yet both have broken 27 minutes for 10K.
to "tgirl"
I will assume you are really who you claim to be and I would like to respectfully ask the following:
What do you think the IAAF should purpose to promote "fair play for the majority, and compassionate treatment for the minority?"
Do you know if the IAAF is preparing a case to take to CAS?
If so, are you involved in any way, and can you comment?
Jelimo was thought to be another such case. Women's 400m runners with such times have been dopers. The 3:50 runners were obviously doping.
zero effect wrote:
nobody cares that you boycotted watching the olympics
It bothered you enough to post about.
If you had principles then you should at least be boycottting watching track and field and cycling too.
Expat Tima wrote:
These posters blaming women for not running fast enough times - what do you think of the Olympic men's 10,000m winning time?.
It was much faster than women's 10000m time. Plus the men weighed a few kilos heavier on average so they had that disadvantage. How fast would the women run if they had 5 kg weights strapped to their back?