Whatever I hope he maintains his form through RIO. Besides the competitive 400 the U.S. will surely need him in the 4X400. I predict that a 400 runner just out of high school will be an important runner for the U.S. 4X400 with Merrit running anchor.
Whatever I hope he maintains his form through RIO. Besides the competitive 400 the U.S. will surely need him in the 4X400. I predict that a 400 runner just out of high school will be an important runner for the U.S. 4X400 with Merrit running anchor.
bulldog35 wrote:
"johnson ran 19.32 but could only muster 43.18, yet merrit can run a WR if he's only in 19.6 shape?? what's your reasoning?"
Reasoning being Jeremy Wariner's best 200 20.17 or 20.19 and he mustered 43:45.
Johnson and Merritt are far more similar as athletes than Wariner and Johnson. Or Kirani and Johnson.
Metric Miler wrote:You are making up he hasn't done much speed work also
nonsense
he has not said how much speedwork he has done
you made up 2 months
for all we know it was coupla weeks
He said he has
not the duration
and clearly has been doing speed work
unknown for how long
Once again he is a sprinter
wow !
and it you knew about sprinting
a lot more than you seem to
you would know he has been working hard on speed
once again
no mention of how long
nor if he has completely changed his training over the winter from previous endurance dominated to more mix of endurance/speed
you have no clue how long he has done the speedwork for if same training as before with mostly endurance then tacking on speed
It is not winter, it is mid April
wow
what do you think Merritt has been doing since February?
mostly endurance work
he has no major race until june where he some speed may be useful but he coud get in top-3 in trials of just endurance - probably win it
it woud be pointless doing any serious speedwork by mid-april april
you don't get given the gold medal in april
You don't think Merritt will be doing the anaerobic work and special endurance heading into the Olympics?
usual gobbleydegook spouted by non-followers of sport
what on earth is "special endurance" supposed to mean
as opposed to "non-special endurance" ???
plain & simple :
he has been doing endurance work all along & lots of weights as he said "strengthwork" which likely means weights, & has just added some speedwork at some recent point
to do months of speedwork for a meaningles race in mid-april is ludicrous
You think he will hope to run rounds of 400s off more speed work?
what is this nonsense ?
he ran 43.65 last year off severely curtailed training with 44.36 coming into peking
he probably had only 20.3/20.4 speed at trials
the man can add speed damn quickly !!!
he coud just do endurance work to trials & he woud still run 43-mid/high which woud get him into top-3 & coud even add the speedwork from then until rio if he wanted
and Merritt would also have run under 20 last year if he had tried around the WC
no
he woudn't have broken 20
~ 20.1 at best
He ran 19.98 in 2007 when he ran 43.96 and is a much more powerful athlete now than he was then
no
more powerful doesn't mean quicker 200
he also bulked up a lot since then which means his 200 couda gone backwards since '07 until now
his 200sbs had been getting progressively slower since '09
that is 4y of slowing !!!
If you compare his 400m from 2007 to his 200m then you get a factor of 2.20
no
primitive factor analysis is useless
he is completely different body-wise from nearly 10y ago
hugely more bulky
43.65/2.2 = 19.84 - that is around what Merritt could have managed last year
no
not only is ratio useless measure, you seem to have no clue about lashawn last year
he was significantly injured most of it & coudn't train propely & managed a paltry 44.36 best coming into peking & some fans didn't even think he'd make the final !
http://pilotonline.com/sports/lashawn-merritt-finishes-nd-at-worlds-despite-his-best-time/article_2bfd803c-4498-531d-8cd1-a3d4f2d9d4f7.html"Merritt raised two fingers after the race, happy to have finished second to top off what he called a "rough" season that included early injuries."
20.8 from 30fps frame by frame analysis doesn't require relying on the screen clock
irrelevant
we have screen clock which is paramount guide once subtracting 0.3s error in display
You load the video into your computer and can determine exactly when the runner passes certain points on the track it's not hard
nonsense
i looked at vid & where they said was 200m at 20.8, which was 21.1 on clock factoring in clock error
there were no lane markings in sight to ascertain a 200m split
nothing
And is good enough for 1dp
it'd be good for 0.03s if you had lane markings...
Splitting 20.8 for someone you say was not capable of sub 20.1 is very tough
i don't agree with 20.8
it is nonsense split
mj split 21.22 in his 43.18wr so i have no faith in 20.8
http://trackandfieldnews.com/discussion/archive/index.php/t-96811.htmleven if 20.8 was anywhere close, it can be done as shown by the great newhouse who split 20.6 in a 44.1 & a pretty damn quick 200 in his 44.40 behind caballo where both smashed the low-altittude auto-time wr of 44.66 by matthews from '72
Especially having a heavy build like Merritt's
no
20.8 looks nonsense
there are no track markings anywhere near that to ascertain 200m point
Kirani James who is a different kind of 400 runner may manage it if he were to run 20 flat
nothing wrong with kirani's speed
he doesn't bother much with 200
he likely was around 20-flat but he doesn't have lashawn's years of accumulated endurance
kirani may even be well below 20 by majors, like butch, but he doesn't run 200s on diamond league
For a powerful 200/400 guy like Merritt he needs to go through 200m ~1s off his PB
no
he doesn't
he has immense endurance accumulated over ~ decade of hard work
even so, his ability allowed him to go thru close to 21-flat last year
learn
mj 21.22 !!! in 43.18
even mj himself never came close to 20.8 in buckets of 43+
jjjjj wrote:In fact, ventolin said that he had been doing a good deal of speedwork to be able to run 19.78.
no
watching interview, there is no indication of how long he has been doing speedwork
days or weeks or months
to have done months of speedwork for mid-april is utterly absurd !!!
what gold medal is he going to race for in mid-april ???
IMO, he has got a proper weights coach who has offered him strength with minimal bulking, perhaps even de-bulked him as he was already colossal physique
here is physics :
if you have same frequency of stride but more strength, you can push off ground harder, meaning longer trajectory as greater ballistic velocity with same frequency
it means greater stride but your legs have not got longer !!!
it is basic physics which many won't/can't grasp
here is basic example :
43.5s run off 2.5m stride
= 160 strides in 400m
= 160 strides / 43.5s =
3.68 strides / s
greater strength means push of harder on foot, longer trajectory assuming similar/same angle, your stride may increase by 1% meaning your stride goes up from 2.5m to
2.5 * 1.01 = 2.525m
your new coverage of distance in 1s is
3.68 * 2.525 =
9.29m
-> 400m in
400 / 9.29 =
43.06 !
this only exemplifies what weight-training can do for you if you don't put on weight but gain strength
running, certainly upto & including 1500 for elites, is a modified weight-training exercise...
jjjjj wrote:I have to say that I have no doubts about how good a 200m runner Butch Reynolds was even at his very best in 1988 after the Olympics, when he set his world record and smashed Lee Evans's old altitude record by 1/2 a second
nonsense
if you had been following the sport back then you wouda known he smashed that wr
~ 6/52
before seoul !!!
butch was supposed to cruise around to gold
that era is outta your depth
Innocent Egbunike is way, way ahead in the first 200m and Reynolds just is not out that fast
that's how to run a 400
Where he really gained was in the latter half where his stamina gave him a huge edge over the others
what stamina ???
where are his huge 500 or 600s ???
I don't think that he was in shape to run 19.80
eh ???
lashawn just ran 19.78 with 19.98 ole
i don't care how you slice'n'dice
you can't run 43.2 off at worst intrinsic 19.8
He was in shape to repeat 21.xx
nonsense
you have no basis for this
he never ran serious 200
it is impossible to run 43.2 off slower than intrinsic 19-high just as it is impossible to run 3'26+ off intrinsic 1'41+
Wariner never broke 20 in numerous attempts and he ran 43.45
clueless
you clearly don't follow sport
in us trials in '06 he cruised 20.28 into a 1.3 in semi !!!
he eased down to 20.28 & observer & poster garry hill, owner, honcho, regis-philbin of t&f news who watched it said he was capable of < 20-flat that run into that huge wind if he had run hard gun-tape
he bombed in final, only running 20.19 with + wind
"we", meaning fans were expecting 19.8 at worst in final
it was shocking poor final of 20.19
however, hill said he looked < 20 into a 1.3 in semi when cruising
that is 19.8 at worst shape for 0 wind flat-out
Indeed, MJ said that Wariner had a shot at his world record. Butch might have run a similar time to Wariner, low 20
nonsense
it is impossible to run 43.2 without intrinsic 19.7/19.8 speed
garry hill already said watching '06 meet that jw's 20.28 into huge 1.3 wouda been below 20 if he had run it hard
ventolin^3 wrote:
Wtfunny wrote:MJ ran 19.32. And what 400m time did he run when he was in 19.32 shape?you seem to have no clue about mj
he was always a 200 guy & atlanta was set-up for double but he wanted the 200
the big race was 200 where despite 19.66wr in trials he got whupped by frankie in oslo soon after
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VY1OWLQWUjAmj knew he had monumental battle for 200 gold
he ran "controlled" 400 to take an easy gold when he knew no one was within proverbial mile of him over 400
he even ran slower to win gold than in trials !!!
he had to save his energy for the later 200 final where he blasted 19.32
if he had only the 400 to race there & ran it flat-out, he wouda been looking at ~ 43-flat
anyone with a clue about the sport woud know his atlanta 400 win was nowhere close to flat-out run
..
Thanks for the link to the Oslo race.
If MJ was in 43 flat shape, he'd have damn sure lined up a couple shots at the WR after the games. He wanted the WR, and took 3 more years to run it.
One second you're claiming Butch wasn't a hot 200m runner, the next you're saying 19.7 shape? That's crazy. He'd never ever have run 19.7. And JW wasn't ever going to get close to that. Ever.
Put the Crack-ulator down.
Look bottom line is Ventolin, Merritt is a 200/400 guy. He has a lot of speed, and power, it is observable in his build, and it is the angle he approaches the 400m from - similar to Johnson.
That means he needs to be similarly fast to Johnson at the 200m to tackle the WR. No math required. 19.5x is not an unreasonable figure to throw around (Johnson ran 19.3), and is the speed I feel Merritt needs to tackle the WR.
But we will see.
Metric Miler wrote:Wariner, Reynolds, and Kirani James are all the same type of 400m runner
nonsense
they have huge varying heights/builds
the only "same" is rubbish you assume they have as crap 200
jw was likely 19.8+ in '06 if you had a clue
As you said, they benefit from their stamina and holding their speed. You could call them 400m specialists
nonsense
jw had likely 19.8+ in '06
kirani looks damn-likely 19.8/19.9 guy but never bothered with serious 200
Johnson and Merritt are both 200/400 guys who have a focus on power
nonsense
former is
latter is 400/200
having a big build and being fast enough over a flat 200m that going through in 21 doesn't hurt too much
nonsense
they are completely different specimens for 400
Johnson had a comparatively terrible 200 to 400 conversion when looking at Reynolds and Wariner
utterly clueless
this is as bad as mickey-mouse firenze track
mj jogged around in atlanta to gold in 43.4+
he knew he had to keep his tinder dry for epic 200 against frankie who whupped him in oslo
do you have any clue about the sport ???
If he had Wariner's stamina he could have easily broken 42 seconds, unthinkable
utter nonsense
mj in '96 was likely
19.2 / 43.0
if flat-out
he wasn't flat-out for 400 as frankie was huge threat
Merritt is in a similar boat (though not as bad)
nonsense
he is 400/200
an immense 200 improvement means likely quantum-leap better over 400
He is a 200/400 guy
nonsense
he is a 400/200 guy
2.2 seems about the right conversion for him
nonsense
different body shape after ~ decade
so 43.5 is a real possibility soon based on this 19.78
nonsense
it is given for 400
lahawn says 43.17 is realistic
impress me :
what was your 200 time to make 43.5 "certain" ???
what was your 200 time to make 43.17 "certain" ???
I think the world record requires more
no
it doesn't
fetch mj's 200sb when he ran 43.18...
No doubt Merritt has been working on his speed and wanted to see the results with this 200m
unknown duration
likely short
he expected 20-low in interview
his training has been unknown apart from some likely better weight-training & unknown speedwork which woud be stoopid to do in mid-april
there are no golds given out in mid-april
I doubt he will enter for the 200/400 double at Rio
he said no
but if he gets to 19.5/19.6 at trials, he needs to
bolt is no more likely 19.4 anymore
I would think
wrong think
(and hope for Van Niekerk's sake!)
why ??
this is american board
that he has been working hard with speed and physical strength as a focus for at least a couple of months to run this time
nonsense
you have no idea how long he has done speedwork or how much he did other years
Not a couple weeks as Ventolin said
nonsense
he may have spent decade+ running 400 off just endurance
go find his workouts...
So for him, carrying this speed over to the 400m and running a great 400 will be the aim and the focus of his training up to Rio
utter nonsense
you have no clue about 400
lashawn is in 43.3 shape right now in mid-april
if he stays injury-free, the only question is in rio
43.10 - 43.17
or
43.00 - 43.10
If he maintains it or even gets faster then maybe the record is on
it is already on
see above
But it is not a given
you have no clue
this is not mickey-mouse firenze
this was 19.78 on a proper track with full auto-timing
lashawn will break 43.18 this year
it is only ? of how much by
ventolin^3 wrote:
Metric Miler wrote:Wariner, Reynolds, and Kirani James are all the same type of 400m runnernonsense
they have huge varying heights/builds
the only "same" is rubbish you assume they have as crap 200
jw was likely 19.8+ in '06 if you had a clue
As you said, they benefit from their stamina and holding their speed. You could call them 400m specialists
nonsense
jw had likely 19.8+ in '06
kirani looks damn-likely 19.8/19.9 guy but never bothered with serious 200
So you agree then that they ARE (were0 similar 400m runs, given you've estimated all of them to be within 1/10th sec over 200m.
mj jogged around in atlanta to gold in 43.4+
he knew he had to keep his tinder dry for epic 200 against frankie who whupped him in oslo
....
utter nonsense
mj in '96 was likely
19.2 / 43.0
if flat-out
he wasn't flat-out for 400 as frankie was huge threat
^This is dead wrong. Frankie beat him by inches in 19.8+. MJ had already run 19.66 at the OT, and knew he was still improving.
MJ was supremely confident before the 200m final. There was an interview with him on Letterman, I think, he smirked and commented how confident he was, how he knew no one in that race was going to threaten him.
I was around and clipped the article about his world record to my wall, and that was at the beginning of the fall semester, but I did not recall that Seoul Olympics were so late in the calendar.
It is indeed possible to run 43.29 without 19.7/19.8 speed. You are training your stride for 21.6 200m pace, which is a very different physical matter than training it for 19.7. Butch never came within .6 of that. That's why I say low 20s>quite a bit better than he ran the previous year when he ran 44.1. Wariner, like Reynolds, would have run a monster 800m at his peak. I've followed Wariner since he was in high school, which is longer than you have known about him. He has tried a lot of 200s. Yes, it is possible that he could have broken 20, but he never did it in a lot of attempts. That's why I give him low 20 when his pr is closer to 20.20. And I grant Reynolds a significantly faster 200m than his pr but when you watch the two of them unable to keep up with faster 200m guys on the first 200m of their fastest races, you see that their top speed is just not comparable to the best 200m runners. MJ and Hart were always urging Wariner to work on his 200m, get that below 20, and to start his 200s faster, but he just wasn't able to do it. Maybe he would have gotten under 20 in the right conditions at the right season, but he had plenty of chances and couldn't do it. But here I'm talking about Butch Reynolds. And it is physically possible to run 3:26 with slower than 1:41, as both El G and Lagat proved. EPO or whatever magical training and natural ability gets you so much more endurance than you'd expect from the lack of speed they both showed.
wtfunny wrote:So you agree then that they ARE (were0 similar 400m runs, given you've estimated all of them to be within 1/10th sec over 200m
NOT for mid-april
at their peak jw was likely 19.8 & kirani maybe 19.8/19.9
lashawn has run 19.78 in mid-april !!!
unless something badly goes wrong injury or illness wise he will likely be in 19.5/19.6 shape in rio
lashawn is helluva lot faster 200 guy than even the 19.8 or 19.9 guys mentioned
^This is dead wrong. Frankie beat him by inches in 19.8+
a loss is a loss, especially in a decent euro meet
MJ had already run 19.66 at the OT, and knew he was still improving
no
no one knew that at the time
he had just improved his pb from 19.79 to 19.66wr then 19.85 loss to frankie then 19.77 just 3 days later
nothing was indicating he was improving from 19.66
to many people, frankie was favorite & if he coud win 19.82 v 19.85 on the tightest track of all, oslo's 105/95 one, perhaps worth 2 tenths quicker on a standard 116/84 it was a coin toss who woud win gold
you are talking in hindisght after the 19.32
no one expected that
MJ was supremely confident before the 200m final. There was an interview with him on Letterman, I think, he smirked and commented how confident he was, how he knew no one in that race was going to threaten him.
false bravado if that is true
he'd just been walloped by frankie over 200 in his 1st 200 loss in years & was going into atlanta as no more than joint favorite
he has said after that he expected to run 19.5+, a time that no one woud have put past frankie before games
you forget how good frankie was over 100/200 in '96 but left his best form on euro circuit
the 100wr was leroy's 9.85 ( + 1.2)
bailey won gold in 9.84wr ( + 0.7 )
frankie before atlanta ran this on cool evening
9.86 ( -0.4 !!! ) :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrVzEvWi4mMnot only did he crush bailey before games, easing off slightly at end, his "basic" time works out good few hundredths quicker than bailey's later 9.84wr basic conversion
frankie ran sub-par in games, where he shouda been expecting to go basic 9.7-high/19.5+
^This is absolutely correct.
Vent claims Merrit isn't a 200/400m runner but a 400/200m runner ( a stupid delineation to start with) .. Merritt has the 3rd fastest 200m PB of any 400m runner ever, and the 2nd fastest of any specialist 400m runner. And, by Vent's own admission, this summer Merrit could well be in shape to have the 2nd fastest 200m PB of any 400m specialist, after only MJ.
How on earth is that NOT a 200/400m runner?
There's only one comparable 400m runner who's ever run faster than him over 200m, and that guy was the 200m world record holder.
Merritt ran a great race, and looks to be in superb shape. Should be a great season for the one lap.
Did El G finish with a 53.2 or a 53.9 in his WR? I keep seeing conflicting info depending on the source.
Wariner was indeed likely capable of sub 20. His 200 races while he was at his peak weren't run mid or late season. If Wariner hadn't split from his coach in '08, he would likely have just nipped Johnson's WR in the 400.
Lagat shouldn't be mentioned. Obvious doper (who was let off because of politics) with his inability to break 1:46 when running against fast people in fast races. I'm sure you'll call this "drivel" but if EPO and other aids weren't available, you'd see few if any guys incapable of 1:45 (at least) in the 800 run sub 3:30 in the 1500. If anyone doubts POLITICS were involved in Lagat being "cleared", take a look at what the IAAF told Lagat and his coach and agent if he pressed for an apology for the announcement regarding his positive A sample. They said the full story would be made public and he would likely find himself unable to compete. Just another pristine performer from Kenya.
Merrit, hilarious doper. He was using DHEA to mitigate the effects of 'roid use, just like a lot of other juicers, especially bodybuilders. It's surprising he was named at all. Most of the time officials notify the The fact that his times dropped dramatically after putting on almost 15kg (about 30 lbs) of muscle adds to the amusement. It will be sweet justice if he's caught again. Or if Van Niekerk destroys him in Rio - which is the more likely scenario, as officials will protect Merrit as they've done with scores of sprinters like King Carl for the past three decades.
I really hope Van Niekerk wins. Just a great talent, little ego and seems a nice guy. No dope questions either.
Metric Miler wrote:
I really hope Van Niekerk wins. Just a great talent, little ego and seems a nice guy. No dope questions either.
Well no more than anyone else at least.
I also really like Neikerk though (and would love to see Kirani reemerge as a force for gold). Honestly I think I might be more impressed by his 9.99 than Merritt's 19.78.
Please keep comments civil in this thread when replying even if you disagree with someone. You can disagree with someone and still be civil.
we're not going to see 43.18 or under from anyone this year. I doubt we'll see anything under 43.35
I really hope Kirani and Niekerk smash Merrit. Both he and MJ are ugly runners to watch and both doped out their minds (Not to say Niekerk is 100% clean). MJ and Merrit run like doped robots... Ivan Drago lookin automatons
I like Kirani. He is the most humble athlete next to Rudisha, is a freak, and the most likely to be clean. He is goofy to watch but like watching a baby giraffe or clumsy Great Dane puppy... so... it is forgiven.
I love watching Niekerk. He has the best form of any 400m runner I have ever seen. Smooth as silk... And he ran the best race I have ever seen by a 400m runner. Literally laid every single bit he had on the line and couldn't even get up after. MJ's WR the fool jogged the first 200 and then ran like crazy and still had something left in the tank and was jumping up and down after. Fake FloJo (or yohan blake 19.26) level performance... ughh
sprintfannn wrote:
I really hope Kirani and Niekerk smash Merrit. Both he and MJ are ugly runners to watch and both doped out their minds (Not to say Niekerk is 100% clean). MJ and Merrit run like doped robots... Ivan Drago lookin automatons
I like Kirani. He is the most humble athlete next to Rudisha, is a freak, and the most likely to be clean. He is goofy to watch but like watching a baby giraffe or clumsy Great Dane puppy... so... it is forgiven.
I love watching Niekerk. He has the best form of any 400m runner I have ever seen. Smooth as silk... And he ran the best race I have ever seen by a 400m runner. Literally laid every single bit he had on the line and couldn't even get up after. MJ's WR the fool jogged the first 200 and then ran like crazy and still had something left in the tank and was jumping up and down after. Fake FloJo (or yohan blake 19.26) level performance... ughh
LMAO!!! Kirani is like a baby giraffe!
Ya Yohan Blakes 19.26 was eerily like Flo Jo. If you see Walter Dix's face he is so mad because he just ran the race of his life and got SMASHED by Blake. He knows he wasn't clean. Look at 2:26
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0RTlTmLSOQBlake apparently dropped the nickname "The Beast" but probably got back on his beast juice. Wonder where he will wind up finishing this year?
LOLLL wrote:
... If you see Walter Dix's face he is so mad because he just ran the race of his life and got SMASHED by Blake. He knows he wasn't clean. Look at 2:26
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0RTlTmLSOQ...
And Dix' 19.53 is clean?