just some perspective here - athletes have been caught many many times for banned supplement use and given just slaps - it could be EPO or roids but we don't know.
just some perspective here - athletes have been caught many many times for banned supplement use and given just slaps - it could be EPO or roids but we don't know.
"For well-trained persons the quantity of carbohydrates is about 700-800 gm. This quantity is sufficient to last for 60-90 minutes of intense exertion."
From Training Lactate Pulse-Rate by Peter G.J.M. Janssen
ISBN 952-90066-8-3
I don't know why i'm going to waste time on this thread...but oh well, here goes:
I have yet to see someone post something verifiable about exactly what the substance is. until then, let's go with the two biggies (well, three).
EPO, Testosterone, and HGH will all assist recover, though EPO to a lesser degree. Taking Test and HGH at such a length after the race (rather than the same day or a day after the race) would not be very productive.
However, let's say that you plan on returning to training as soon as possible after the marathon. Let's also assume that you used EPO up to about a month before the race, then microdosed up to two weeks before the race. You certainly maximized your benefits that way but here's the thing: doing that ensures that your body will stop making reticulocytes, causing a fairly precipitous drop in baby red cells. Thus, when you return to training post marathon, it's going to be even harder than it would be for a clean athlete (their retic levels don't vary like a doper's do)...so, you pop just a touch of EPO to boost things back to normal and counteract the effects of coming off EPO (sorta like doing certain female drugs to counteract steroid side effects). viola, you return to training full gas, so to speak, and don't have this 1-2 month "getting back in shape to get in shape" period that we're all too familiar with after injury, marathon, or other layoff.
Not saying this is what happened with this lady but certainly a very good reason why an athlete *who was previously/already doping* would dope AFTER an event, especially at what, to many people, seems like odd timing (two or more weeks post event). take it for what you will, we really won't know until the substance comes out, then we can make a more accurate judgement as to what/why/how she did it, if it is indeed confirmed by a B sample.
Former Columbia Runner wrote:
"For well-trained persons the quantity of carbohydrates is about 700-800 gm. This quantity is sufficient to last for 60-90 minutes of intense exertion."
From Training Lactate Pulse-Rate by Peter G.J.M. Janssen
ISBN 952-90066-8-3
Ever notice runners picking up bottles with energy drinks at aid stations in a marathon.
fred wrote:
Former Columbia Runner wrote:"For well-trained persons the quantity of carbohydrates is about 700-800 gm. This quantity is sufficient to last for 60-90 minutes of intense exertion."
From Training Lactate Pulse-Rate by Peter G.J.M. Janssen
ISBN 952-90066-8-3
Ever notice runners picking up bottles with energy drinks at aid stations in a marathon.
Holy crap. Please stop.
Don't cite Janssen's book.
How about you read some actual research:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2958805/Secondly, if you think 700grams (2800calories) is only good for 60-90min of exercise, you're also delusional
The fact is we never run out of glycogen, our body slows us down before we do.
Another Former Ivy Leauger wrote:
beyond ridiculous wrote:The best way to shift fuel utilization is actually to run out of fuel.
Yes, but not in a training phase. You only shift that at the end of a training phase before a race during or after a taper. "hitting the wall" is not part of marathon training.
Running longer and slower pace has its benefits in the fat burning phase of slow twitch muscle contraction and actually spares glycogen exactly what this training program was doing. Maybe names like Lydiard come to mind when thinking of this kind of training.
Canova actually refers to "embarrassing the system" as doing long depleting runs with fast finishes for this purpose. Or similarly, doing runs on fasted or depleted stores to accomplish the same goal.
So yes, in "modern" marathon training, pushing the glycogen depletion to the limit is done in training.
": Runners with large aerobic capacities and relatively large leg muscles can store enough liver and muscle glycogen to fuel marathon runs at elite-athlete paces (paces approaching those required to challenge the current world records of 2:03:59 for men and 2:15:25 for women) without exhausting physiologic carbohydrate stores"
I'm glad the former Columbia runner brought up Wejo. This has great relevance to the Lisa N story.
I am in the camp that firmly believes Paula cheated in some manner. Perhaps the substance(s) or technique she used wasn't specifically banned at the time. Her 2:15 becomes more and more of an outlier every year another woman fails to even approach the boundary.
However, unlike Wejo, at least Paula has performances at other distances that indicate high talent. None of Wejo's non-10k performances are anywhere close to his low 28s. None. His 1500m, 5k, marathon all indicate much less physiologically ability. I have absolutely zero empirical evidence that Wejo cheated, nor have I ever heard any credible connection between him and suspect individuals. That said, his rapid improvement and large apparent differences in physiological performances cause me to scratch my head in the same manner as when presented solely with Lisa N's progression.
Former Columbia Runner wrote:
A 2:25 performer is running 120 bpm somewhere in the 7-8 minute per mile range. It pays to do A LOT of training in this system, apparently.
Not addressing the subject, but..
Weren't they big on heart rate training and long slow mileage in the 90s. And wasn't this the reason people were so slow?
And doesn't Canova say the opposite. You need fast long runs.
7-8minute per mile is GLACIAL for a a 2:25 runner.
Another Former Ivy Leauger wrote:.
Her recent national record marathon performance put into context, 10 minutes behind the world record seems ordinary. Its a performance that's not unbelievable but clearly better than what she has ever done but not by that wide a margin. I believed it, I still do. A majority of female marathoners hit their best years in their 30's cleanly. There are literally hundreds of marathon times faster than 2:25:44..
and
Another Former Ivy Leauger wrote:
Does a 2:25:44 really sound that fast to you?
650 performances are faster.
http://www.marathonguide.com/history/records/alltimelist.cfm?Gen=FLisa's time wasn't even in the top 500.
.
Come on buddy. You supposedly have an Ivy League degree.
She's an American born white runner. 5 American born women in history have run faster than her. Not hundreds. Comparing her to African born runners isn't a great comparison.
2:25 isn't that amazing but it's pretty darn good.
Passing along an email we got from a NYer.
A LRC visitor wrote:
you may use this as a “tip†if you want to follow up, but please leave my name out of anything/everything.
A lot of markers, starting when she left the US. Had been obvious to me.
She was about as low as a Columbia grad can be - nothing to lose -- unemployed, dissatisfied in the US.
Moves to Croatia - which I, like you, think of as â€Eastern†Europe.
Meets up with a local coach there.
Makes a step-change in performance – national records, sponsors, 2:30 marathon, named to WC and Olympic teams.
(Marker: At rock-bottom personally, then improves rapidly in a ‘more permissive’ environment)
Runs Olympic Marathon in 2:34 on Aug 6, 2012, the hard way - 1:13:14 / 1:20:49
13 days later, finished 3rd in halfmarathon in Klagenfurt, Austria (Aug 19).
8 weeks after that, approx. 2-minute HM PR in in Zagreb: 1:10:31 in November
(Marker: Rapid recovery from a tough marathon)
Mar 17, 2013, PR by 1:02 in NYC Half, 1:09:18
April 7, PR by 5:02 in Zurich 2:25:44
(Marker: Another big leap in performances after already being at a high level)
August 2013: On IAAF list of athletes at WCs, but not on marathon start list – last-minute injury
Sept 7: 32:58 road 10k in Prague, wins Eur100
(Marker: Scratched from a global championship meet due to late injury but PRs in a “commercial †race 4 weeks later)
Now DMSO is primarily used as a transdermal solvent for Trenbolone Acetate, readily available with one click, OTC, for your young "calves":
Point is the argument should not be about whether she doped or not, but WHY in the world was she caught??
I don't know sh*t about doping, but I do know this lady has nooooo sense of humor
http://columbiaspectator.com/2012/08/04/londonlions-do-you-have-be-insane-run-marathon
Junk Master wrote:
Now DMSO is primarily used as a transdermal solvent for Trenbolone Acetate, readily available with one click, OTC, for your young "calves":
http://www.qcsupply.com/540083-synovex-h-10-10-dose.html?utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=productfeeds&gclid=Cj0KEQiA0-GxBRDWsePx0pPtp4sBEiQACuTLNgfmus757c2nASeygyCRB-lWQm2oFjG-zbCujPlKG0UaAsJG8P8HAQPoint is the argument should not be about whether she doped or not, but WHY in the world was she caught??
"Trenbolone Acetate is a 19-nortestosterone (19-nor) anabolic androgenic steroid. The 19-nor classification refers to a structural change of the testosterone hormone in that it lacks a carbon atom at the 19th position. This puts Trenbolone Acetate in the same category as Deca Durabolin (Nandrolone Decanoate). In fact, the Trenbolone hormone itself is simply a modified form of the Nandrolone hormone"
rojo wrote:
I always thought her improvement was amazing and wondered why she didn't get more press but in the back of my mind maybe 5-10% of my brain did think 'Wait, she's training in Eastern Europe. Is it possible she could be doping?' That thought depressed me and was killing my enjoyment of the sport. I tried to tell myself, "Don't be so stereotypical." I even thought, "An Ivy Leaguer wouldn't dope in running would they?"
Is that what you tell yourself about Radcliffe?
IF this ends up with a conviction, I guess the conclusion is everyone has to be viewed as a potential doper, particularly if they are from anywhere in the former Soviet Union/Morocco or Spain.
Right, but not the US or UK, after all we need to keep our priorities.
The situation has tried to clarify Lisa's coach Slavko Petrovic. "In Berlin, the first two days before the race, September 25, was the control of blood. Half an hour after the race was to control urine. Both findings are quite clear. And then we are on vacation get positive result? Well, a million percent will prove to be a mistake. He just needs to survive this waiting and uncertainty, "said Petrovic.
Clerk wrote:
Her coach is obfuscating, trying to say there is a negative B-sample, and that a blood test and urine test was negative on September 25th and 27th, but that her positive came October 6th
The coach obviously has no scruples, telling the truth and expecting others to see that he's right.
After all, he's from the wrong country, and therefore... she has to be guilty.
Besides, that's faster than real Americans run.
Meanwhile let's keep trashing her on the internet, and making sure that DRUG CHEAT Radcliffe's transgressions remain hidden from view.
Lots of people get accused. This seems to be a test result. After seeing how Rupp and Paula were treated this year, I say that we should wait for the test results to come in. I am not sure if Radcliffe fully released her data. It seems like that story and the NOP story are all done now.Improved performance theories do not hold up well. For example, people here cited Rupp's mile improvement as signs of doping but were largely silent when Jager achieved the same. Solinsky improved a ton on a year and Desi went from a nobody to nearly winning majors,
Another Former Ivy Leauger wrote:
I think its inappropriate to question or call into question someone solely based on their performance rather than their coaching, country, other past history as has been done in Paula's case many times on this site. Paula never tested positive, her coach was never involved with doping, there was no history of large systemic doping or organized coverups of doping involving the UK.
The abnormalities in her blood tests also were well within normal natural limitations and are common after a hard training stint or marathon. There is simply no reason to question her based on these facts and one would have to do it based only on her performances.
I've watched Paula since she became professional and the clearest thing about her talent is how long her legs are and efficient her long strides seem to be that make her a different runner than most women. If you have seen her run its clear that she is just different in this respect, there is no other way to say it.
As a former Ivy League runner I also watched the former Lisa Stublic run on a few occasions. She was well above average but not exceptional; she was also on a very good team that included multiple all americans. She seemed very talented in that respect, always a threat at heps certainly a top scorer that could change their team's outcome. However she was never fast on the track, a fact which is also usually typical of marathoner's.
Her recent national record marathon performance put into context, 10 minutes behind the world record seems ordinary. Its a performance that's not unbelievable but clearly better than what she has ever done but not by that wide a margin. I believed it, I still do. A majority of female marathoners hit their best years in their 30's cleanly. There are literally hundreds of marathon times faster than 2:25:44.
It would be a shame if Lisa really tested positive as her performance didn't really indicate it. Perhaps her representing an Eastern European country was a mistake. What this situation appears to be, like many others are involving that part of the world, is in the 'other reasons' category.
" We asked Mary Cain if we could get an interview and she said, Know "
Robert Johnson- Ivy league eduated cofounder of LetsRun.com
I traveled to the former Yugoslavia during the height of the Cold War. It was considered an Eastern Bloc country at the time, although it was also the most independent from the Soviets. Strongman Josip Broz Tito was their leader, he fought the Nazis.