Amerikano wrote:
Can you explain what Kip Keino was on in 1968 when he ran 3:34 at 7,000 feet... beating Jim Ryun by 3 secs...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_9AAy7yZTc
This is no mystery. East Africans have a natural adaptation and their hemoglobin is highly saturated with oxygen even in high altitudes. This is why they can run very similar times like at low altitude.
Amerikano wrote:
Why did this happen?
Well organized women's athletics was behind for the East African countries vs the rest of the world. Once they started to train, most did longer events like 5k/10k and Marathon... including the top talents such as T.Dibaba and Meseret Defar. Both those women probably could have run 3:53/54 in their primes. As we've seen the gene pool finally kick in to the MD events, we are seeing top talent do the 1500m. Genzebe wasn't even a 1500m runner until recently, she focused on longer events too...the Ethiopian model (following Yifter, Geb, Bekele, Defar, and T.Dibaba).
Also, I think the first big talent for Kenyan women was Jelimo. She was like the female Rudisha, but seemed to have issues staying healthy. She may have been able to run under 1:53 with better luck.
Just to sum up everything on my end: The women's MD events are just now seeing top East African talent do the 1500m event, so that is something to consider.
Blah blah blah,... They all have been using blood doping on a mass scale since mid-1990s. And it is getting worse and worse.
PC people are weak wrote:
Jerkstore, M.D. wrote:You're really late to the party.
I've kind of assumed everyone is doping for about as long as I've been following the sport. Are you only realizing this now?
Once you make peace with that fact, watching T&F becomes fun again because you realize the playing field is level. That's been the case with me for two decades, and I'm enjoying the sport as much as I ever did.
It's not level. If you think Kenyans, Cubans, Ethiopians, Brazilians, Jamaicans and others are under the same year round testing for PEDs you are an idiot. The E. Africans are almost never tested out of season and the numbers of times they are tested in comparison with American or Japanese athletes for example is ridiculous. Green light to cheat.
Right, you haven't a clue on this. The IAAF will send testers no matter your location. Kisorio and Jeptoo were both done in on out of comp tests in Kenya. Has no one told you that Jama Aden's group trains in Europe? Do you that's beyond the reach of anti-doping forces as well?
Has there ever been a Worlds that didn't have eye-opening performances? Isn't that why people train?
What exactly do people want to see, 1950s type performances?
Sports Physiologist wrote:
Amerikano wrote:Can you explain what Kip Keino was on in 1968 when he ran 3:34 at 7,000 feet... beating Jim Ryun by 3 secs...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_9AAy7yZTcThis is no mystery. East Africans have a natural adaptation and their hemoglobin is highly saturated with oxygen even in high altitudes. This is why they can run very similar times like at low altitude.
And probably one of the reasons why they usually destroy all-comers at sea level too.
Tyrone ReXXXing wrote:
Sports Physiologist wrote:This is no mystery. East Africans have a natural adaptation and their hemoglobin is highly saturated with oxygen even in high altitudes. This is why they can run very similar times like at low altitude.
And probably one of the reasons why they usually destroy all-comers at sea level too.
No. This adaptation brings no benefits at sea level.
Kenyans have normal hemoglobin levels and Ethiopians only slightly elevated.
Left Said Fred wrote:
Right, you haven't a clue on this. The IAAF will send testers no matter your location. Kisorio and Jeptoo were both done in on out of comp tests in Kenya. Has no one told you that Jama Aden's group trains in Europe? Do you that's beyond the reach of anti-doping forces as well?
Yes, they will send testers at times, but in certain areas travel expenses can severely limit the number of random unannounced out-of-comp tests that testers can accomplish. And if the testers have to travel significant distances and go through customs and make other arrangements with locals in order get to a site to administer testing, the chance of advance warning making its way to the athletes and their people tends to be much greater. That can allow the athletes to take necessary actions and precautions to avoid testing positive on the rare occasions that IAAF has a testing staff travel to remote areas.
pop_pop! wrote:
No, not really. Read the rules. Doping is permitted. Just not enough to kill you for most athletes.
For some like Bolt who the IAAF clearly feel is the face of the sport, it's a free-for-all. Lance Armstrong all over again.
Yeah, sure, you can't fail the IQ test, but even then it seems like if you have enough money you can make that go away too.
It's important to remember, as Seppelt's work shows, the IAAF is not required to open a case on every positive and there's no penalty for doing nothing. Well, except maybe missing bribes.
I've read the IAAF rules many times over the past few years so I have to disagree with your first paragraph above. The vast majority of banned PEDs are banned completely, not just above a certain level. If a testing threshold for the substance is determined and set in order to minimize the chance of a false positive, it doesn't mean that using the PED up to that level is permitted.
Really... no benefits? Something tells me different on this all-time list.
http://www.alltime-athletics.com/mmaraok.htm
My original point wasn't to say with 100% certainty that Dibaba, Hassan, and Kipyego are all clean but that the women's 1500m historically has not had any East Africans with talent participating.
Imagine the top men's list with Chinese and Russians leading it, even doped that list would suck. Much like the men, the genetics make a big difference, so either A) the new crop of Ethiopians/Kenyans are more talented and not doped B) they are equally talented (I find this hard to believe) and equally doped C) more talented, same doped...same times (not likely either)
You choose, either Dibaba's natural talents are just as good as 10 other Chinese women, both just doped like crazy or she is just something way better than we've seen.
Like most people on these boards I have no real information about who's doping and who's not doping. But I've followed track closely for years and have witnessed the endless stream of drug scandals. Quite frankly I'd be shocked if more than 30-40% of the medals at the 2015 Worlds were won by clean athletes.
Some of the 800/1500 performances have been especially disconcerting, particularly given the two current huge doping scandals. It's almost as if some athletes are saying screw you to the IAAF.
I have no doubt that there are some clean 800/1500 runners who will be sitting in the stands watching some of their doped brethren race in the final. I imagine that must suck.
reason for training wrote:
What exactly do people want to see, 1950s type performances?
the 50's and 60's were more doped than any other era in history ever was, or ever will be unless dope becomes legal again like it was then.
Why would you say that? What does blatant doping look like, versus clean running?
Coach Cookie wrote:
Everyday there's a race that it's just a complete joke. The level of doping is so blatant that it's just sad to watch. Mo, Dibaba, the 400 today... joke, joke, joke...
I'm seriously done with T&F... it's just too much... it's much worse than pro cycling... just effing ridiculous...
Apart from Dibaba's 1500 WR, what exactly makes anyone here think athletes are doping? The athletes at the world championships are performing to a high level? What are 'realistic' performances for you people, really? You expect these elites to run 1:50 for the 800 and collapse throwing up? Maybe the real problem is nearly everyone on this forum just flopped in athletics and never made it, and so are bitter towards those with more talent. Just cause you found it hard to run 3:45 for the 1500m doesn't mean it is difficult.
People here act like training doesn't work and the only way to improve is to dope. As if people who dedicate their lives to sport can't improve. Has nobody here ever improved faster than expected or surprised everyone and themselves with a performance?
Just ridiculous, go watch the school games or something if you want to see males struggle to run 1:50 800m.
What if Jager had medaled? Would all you fan boys be here crying "doper" ?
I highly doubt it.
You're all so petty and jealous because you will never have a shot at the world level.
Yeah, I totally agree. What is realistic then? And I'm not one of those who believe that everyone is clean, but I do believe that some people just have supreme talent and I'd like to know what some of you here consider to be realistic.
DesertRat wrote:
pop_pop! wrote:No, not really. Read the rules. Doping is permitted. Just not enough to kill you for most athletes.
For some like Bolt who the IAAF clearly feel is the face of the sport, it's a free-for-all. Lance Armstrong all over again.
Yeah, sure, you can't fail the IQ test, but even then it seems like if you have enough money you can make that go away too.
It's important to remember, as Seppelt's work shows, the IAAF is not required to open a case on every positive and there's no penalty for doing nothing. Well, except maybe missing bribes.
I've read the IAAF rules many times over the past few years so I have to disagree with your first paragraph above. The vast majority of banned PEDs are banned completely, not just above a certain level. If a testing threshold for the substance is determined and set in order to minimize the chance of a false positive, it doesn't mean that using the PED up to that level is permitted.
Testosterone use is welcome. Use it to 4x the human norm.
EPO use is welcome. The urine test for EPO isn't very effective. That's the entire reason for longitudinal testing. (bio-passport) And we know because of Seppelt's work, the IAAF is ignoring crazy longitudinal values. Anyone see how Reedie is handling Russia? He specifically recommended Russians use the lab used near Sochi going forward and conveniently forgets the lab was so bad it was decertified.
If an athlete is going to take DHEA or other easily tested compounds, then they've failed the IQ test. Doping is okay, just don't kill yourself is the message the IAAF sends.
IggySlovenia wrote:
Yeah, I totally agree. What is realistic then? And I'm not one of those who believe that everyone is clean, but I do believe that some people just have supreme talent and I'd like to know what some of you here consider to be realistic.
I consider Bolt, Eaton, Farah, Schippers, Felix, Clement, Bershawn and more to doing things realistically. Supreme talents for sure and they work incredibly hard.
Left Said Fred wrote:
Right, you haven't a clue on this. The IAAF will send testers no matter your location. Kisorio and Jeptoo were both done in on out of comp tests in Kenya. Has no one told you that Jama Aden's group trains in Europe? Do you that's beyond the reach of anti-doping forces as well?
Will they? Let's look at the 2014 report.
https://wada-main-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/wada_2014_anti-doping-testing-figures_full-report_en.pdfPage 73: 20 BLOOD SAMPLES FOR ALL OF 2014 by the IAAF.
Page 77-78: Maybe I missed Anti-doping Kenya?
There is a reference to a Kenyan National federation performing 52 in competition urinalysis tests in table #13 with no AAF. Zero.
There is another reference to Kenya Athletics Federation performing 2 tests. That's right, 2 tests for all of 2014 and no AAF.
Bio-passport stats are broken out separately. No stats published about bio-passport positives. Funny how that works.
Page 188: Hmm No Kenya there.
Not much testing in Kenya, on Kenyans by Kenyans, unless it's the IAAF.
Bolt and Schippers are two drug cheats
I would agree with you that the rest are clean IMO.
reason for training wrote:
Has there ever been a Worlds that didn't have eye-opening performances? Isn't that why people train?
What exactly do people want to see, 1950s type performances?
So, "progress" is required and therefore doping is okay.
FYI:
https://wada-main-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/resources/files/kenya_anti-doping_taskforce_final_report_.pdfKenyan report on Kenyan anti-doping reports there is no Kenyan anti-doping.