Glad you are posting again. I look forward to tracking your progress this season.
Timing your strides seems a little overkill dude, but definitely keep doing strides.
Also agree with the stay relaxed at race pace advice.
Your endurance looks absolutely fine.
Don't overdo it. Stay healthy and you should kill it this spring.
I think at this point in the season your tempos should be phased out. They really seem quite slow for a guy trying to run 4:24 and I don't really see what you will get out of them at this point in the season. As for mile specific workouts, try some longer reps at goal pace or slightly slower.
Something like:
1k@2:44
6min rest
800@2:12
6min rest
600@1:40
These workouts are tough, but they really build you up on the strength side of things.
'Then the rest of the strides are done in sub 13 seconds, generally 12.5 or so. '
100m in 12.5 is not strides for you. It's a sprint
ukathleticscoach wrote:
'Then the rest of the strides are done in sub 13 seconds, generally 12.5 or so. '
100m in 12.5 is not strides for you. It's a sprint
Well keep in mind that these are hand timed. They're not a 100% sprint, although they are fast.
letsbang wrote:
I think at this point in the season your tempos should be phased out. They really seem quite slow for a guy trying to run 4:24 and I don't really see what you will get out of them at this point in the season. As for mile specific workouts, try some longer reps at goal pace or slightly slower.
Something like:
1k@2:44
6min rest
800@2:12
6min rest
600@1:40
These workouts are tough, but they really build you up on the strength side of things.
I will try this workout Wednesday or Thursday, depending on when I go to the track.
I was thinking about just adding tempos into doubles for workout days. Like a tempo in the morning and a track workout in the evening (or vice Versa). Not every time, but maybe once a week. I feel like a lot of people don't like them but they make me feel nice and strong when I do them, and they've always helped me drop time in the past. Even in the mile/800. I may start to do shorter, faster ones though.
In my kid's SR. year H.S., he ran about 70 mi. wk. w/ a 3 mi. and 5 mi. tempo. He ran 4:37 first race. He doubled 800/1600 every meet . Midway into season he ran 2:00 flat 800 in really windy cond. later that night ran 4:24 in really good cond. The only time he ran just the 1600 in a meet, it was 95 degrees and 25+ mph winds, he ran 4:24
Call your strides "speed development", to end some peoples issues with how fast you run them.
ThatAverageRunner wrote:
letsbang wrote:I think at this point in the season your tempos should be phased out. They really seem quite slow for a guy trying to run 4:24 and I don't really see what you will get out of them at this point in the season. As for mile specific workouts, try some longer reps at goal pace or slightly slower.
Something like:
1k@2:44
6min rest
800@2:12
6min rest
600@1:40
These workouts are tough, but they really build you up on the strength side of things.
I will try this workout Wednesday or Thursday, depending on when I go to the track.
I was thinking about just adding tempos into doubles for workout days. Like a tempo in the morning and a track workout in the evening (or vice Versa). Not every time, but maybe once a week. I feel like a lot of people don't like them but they make me feel nice and strong when I do them, and they've always helped me drop time in the past. Even in the mile/800. I may start to do shorter, faster ones though.
I think Tempos are good, but not at the expense of mile pace work now that it is January. Honestly, your tempos just seem out of whack with your other workout paces, and I don't think they really have any benefit towards running a fast mile in 6weeks.
For a point of reference, when I broke 4:24 for the first time (4:23.2), it was early in the season and it was off of mostly tempos/base etc. My last tempo before that race was a 3mile cutdown in 5:30, 5:17, 5:08. I guess my question to you is, how easy are you running these tempos? I am definitely a big fan of keeping things under control when base building, but when I start racing the mi/3k I start to crank on these tempos until I phase them out. I describe it as "almost a race type effort, without a kick."
letsbang wrote:
I think at this point in the season your tempos should be phased out. They really seem quite slow for a guy trying to run 4:24 and I don't really see what you will get out of them at this point in the season. As for mile specific workouts, try some longer reps at goal pace or slightly slower.
Something like:
1k@2:44
6min rest
800@2:12
6min rest
600@1:40
These workouts are tough, but they really build you up on the strength side of things.
Cut the rest time in half and that workout makes sense.
jamin wrote:
letsbang wrote:I think at this point in the season your tempos should be phased out. They really seem quite slow for a guy trying to run 4:24 and I don't really see what you will get out of them at this point in the season. As for mile specific workouts, try some longer reps at goal pace or slightly slower.
Something like:
1k@2:44
6min rest
800@2:12
6min rest
600@1:40
These workouts are tough, but they really build you up on the strength side of things.
Cut the rest time in half and that workout makes sense.
Not at all, I did this workout at exactly 4:20pace with the rest described above last tues, and ran exactly 4:20 this weekend. Running a 1k followed by an 800 at mile pace, even with 6min rest, is no joke.
letsbang wrote:
jamin wrote:Cut the rest time in half and that workout makes sense.
Not at all, I did this workout at exactly 4:20pace with the rest described above last tues, and ran exactly 4:20 this weekend. Running a 1k followed by an 800 at mile pace, even with 6min rest, is no joke.
Got to go with letsbang on this advice, provided that it's active rest between. Always error on the side of a little more rest between efforts. I'm not a big fan of squeezing down the rest between the faster training wokouts. I think you can easily fry an athlete with overly aggressive interval training. You might try less volume at fast pace with good rest, for your speed workout.
for what it's worth wrote:
letsbang wrote:Not at all, I did this workout at exactly 4:20pace with the rest described above last tues, and ran exactly 4:20 this weekend. Running a 1k followed by an 800 at mile pace, even with 6min rest, is no joke.
Got to go with letsbang on this advice, provided that it's active rest between. Always error on the side of a little more rest between efforts. I'm not a big fan of squeezing down the rest between the faster training wokouts. I think you can easily fry an athlete with overly aggressive interval training. You might try less volume at fast pace with good rest, for your speed workout.
Hmmm .. Maybe that's what happened to me last year, when I stagnated at 1:58 for 800m. I fried my legs from doing so many 8x200m workouts every week.
letsbang wrote:
ThatAverageRunner wrote:I will try this workout Wednesday or Thursday, depending on when I go to the track.
I was thinking about just adding tempos into doubles for workout days. Like a tempo in the morning and a track workout in the evening (or vice Versa). Not every time, but maybe once a week. I feel like a lot of people don't like them but they make me feel nice and strong when I do them, and they've always helped me drop time in the past. Even in the mile/800. I may start to do shorter, faster ones though.
I think Tempos are good, but not at the expense of mile pace work now that it is January. Honestly, your tempos just seem out of whack with your other workout paces, and I don't think they really have any benefit towards running a fast mile in 6weeks.
For a point of reference, when I broke 4:24 for the first time (4:23.2), it was early in the season and it was off of mostly tempos/base etc. My last tempo before that race was a 3mile cutdown in 5:30, 5:17, 5:08. I guess my question to you is, how easy are you running these tempos? I am definitely a big fan of keeping things under control when base building, but when I start racing the mi/3k I start to crank on these tempos until I phase them out. I describe it as "almost a race type effort, without a kick."
I could probably push my shorter tempos harder/do shorter tempos. Over the summer I wouldn't push my tempos too hard, I would just run 6:00 pace or so for a while a few days a week and it seemed to get me in good shape.
You clearly had more endurance than me because I could not run a sub 16 3 mile in practice to save my life. At least not at the moment. That's why I've been doing more tempos. When I was in 4:30+ shape I could barely break 9:30 in the 3k. I may add in a shorter hard tempo every now and then and cut out the 6-10 mile tempos for the most part. First race is in about 10 days!
for what it's worth wrote:
letsbang wrote:Not at all, I did this workout at exactly 4:20pace with the rest described above last tues, and ran exactly 4:20 this weekend. Running a 1k followed by an 800 at mile pace, even with 6min rest, is no joke.
Got to go with letsbang on this advice, provided that it's active rest between. Always error on the side of a little more rest between efforts. I'm not a big fan of squeezing down the rest between the faster training wokouts. I think you can easily fry an athlete with overly aggressive interval training. You might try less volume at fast pace with good rest, for your speed workout.
I will attempt this workout Wednesday and report back Saturday or Sunday. I'll jog 2-2.5 laps between the reps to keep it active. I am also racing a road 5k Saturday. I ran a race this time last year in 17:03, by myself basically. I'm pretty bad at road races so we'll see how this goes haha.
You might add a bit of LT effort in your long run. My kid is red shirting indoor and is hoping to time trial mile in sub 4:10 in mid Mar. but most of the training is longer strength type stuff.
for what it's worth wrote:
You might add a bit of LT effort in your long run. My kid is red shirting indoor and is hoping to time trial mile in sub 4:10 in mid Mar. but most of the training is longer strength type stuff.
I really agree with this, although I think at this point it is a little too late for OP. I am also working towards a goal of 4:10 (more realistically probably 4:13) by the end of feb. This fall I was doing a lot (once-twice/wk) of 12-16milers at just under 6pace. They didn't really feel "hard" but they weren't easy either. I really feel like these runs help a ton with strength. Now that the season has started though, I've been keeping long runs controlled, more in the 6:30-6:45range, since I am doing two hard workouts/wk and need to recover.
I know from reading R2W logs that a lot of solid milers do these types of runs in base phase, either as straight sub-tempos or as progression runs. I really like this type of training.
[quote]I will attempt this workout Wednesday and report back Saturday or Sunday. I'll jog 2-2.5 laps between the reps to keep it active. I am also racing a road 5k Saturday. I ran a race this time last year in 17:03, by myself basically. I'm pretty bad at road races so we'll see how this goes haha. [quote]
Yeah, I kept the rest active but didn't really push it, maybe running 8-8:30pace. I think it actually helps keep you from getting stiff once the lactic starts building up.
To hit 4:24 I really think you need to be in close to 9min 3k shape at a minimum, unless you are a sub 1:55 800guy. Strength is king in the mile, but that doesn't necessarily mean strength over 5k/8k/10k, more like the ability to run a good 3k. My 5k/8k/10k pr's are abysmal compared to my 8/1mi/3k times, but I'm also a bigger dude, so I think weight comes into play a bit in longer races.
letsbang wrote:
[quote]I will attempt this workout Wednesday and report back Saturday or Sunday. I'll jog 2-2.5 laps between the reps to keep it active. I am also racing a road 5k Saturday. I ran a race this time last year in 17:03, by myself basically. I'm pretty bad at road races so we'll see how this goes haha. [quote]
Yeah, I kept the rest active but didn't really push it, maybe running 8-8:30pace. I think it actually helps keep you from getting stiff once the lactic starts building up.
To hit 4:24 I really think you need to be in close to 9min 3k shape at a minimum, unless you are a sub 1:55 800guy. Strength is king in the mile, but that doesn't necessarily mean strength over 5k/8k/10k, more like the ability to run a good 3k. My 5k/8k/10k pr's are abysmal compared to my 8/1mi/3k times, but I'm also a bigger dude, so I think weight comes into play a bit in longer races.
I'm 5'11 and 150lbs, so not big but not scrawny. Idk what my body fat is but its pretty dang low as I'm the most cut on our team by a good margin. Not that weight matters that much.
And i'm not sure what kind of 3k shape I'm in but during XC I ran 6X1k with 2:30-3min rest in 3:00, 3:00, 3:00, 3:02, 3:02, 2:55. Felt pretty relaxed and like I could of done a few more at similar pace (Had I not pushed the last one). I know it's not a 3k, but I felt like I could/can run close to 9:00. I think another reason my mile time is so much better than my 3k is because I plain and simple under-perform in the 3k. It's hard. haha
Week ending in 1/9:
Sunday: 8 mile easy (7:30)
Monday: 8 mile tempo on treadmill (6:00)
Tuesday: 8 miles easy (7:30)
Wednesday: AM 1k and 500m in 2:47 and 1:25 by myself on the track
PM 8X2min @ 5:00 pace on the treadmill. 90sec rest
Thursday: 8.3 miles easy (7:14)
Friday: AM 4 miles easy (7:30)
PM 4 miles easy (7:30)
Saturday: Road race 5k. 16:19. Splits of 5:02, 5:10, 5:22
Week total: 55 miles
It's been awhile since I've posted. Just been distracted and busy at school. I was still on break during this week. the 1k session was a failure. After the 500m it felt like my lungs were going to explode. I've never felt them burn that bad. Not when I run on indoor tracks and now when I take too big of a hit when I toke up (I no longer do this, lol). It was weird. Then I never felt the same. My lungs and chest and throat felt dry every day. I could run but it was annoying. I ran the race, and I still felt weird but I ran decently well. I won the race by 3minutes, and I wore a watch to make sure the course was accurate (it was.) I think my endurance is good. I'm betting im in at least sub 16 shape with competition on a track.
Week ending in 1/16
Sunday: 5.5 miles easy (7:10)
Monday: AM 3 miles easy (7:24)
PM 8X90sec @ 4:43 average pace. 90sec rest
Tuesday: AM 4 miles, 2.5 mile tempo @ 5:50. Started at 6:10 and cut down to 5:30
PM 9.5 miles easy (6:48) last few miles sub 6:30
Wednesday:
2X5min @ 5:15, 4:52 pace
1X3min @ 4:45 pace
1X90sec @ 4:17 pace
1X60 sec @ 4:10 pace
1X45 sec @ 4:01 pace
1X30 sec @ 3:50 pace
~3min rest on average
Thursday: Off. Sick
Friday: 4 miles easy (7:30)
Saturday: RIT Tiger invitational.
Mile in 4:31
Lead leg 4X4 in 53.09
Week total: 47.5
That chest thing from the previous week lingered, and after my Wednesday workout I felt overall really crappy. I went to bed early and stayed in bed most of Thursday and Friday. Couldn't run Thursday and my Friday run was miserable. 7:30 pace was god awful. Whole body was sore. I almost told coach I didn't want to go to the meet, but I just took all expectations off of myself and tried to have fun, as I did start to feel better Friday evening.
All workouts have been done on the treadmill as the windchill has been 0 degrees and we've gotten 2 ft of snow this past week. So the paces were probably a little easier than depicted.
RACE RECAP:
Woke up Saturday morning at 5:30 am for the meet, and I wake up to having almost no voice. I don't feel good but I don't feel terrible so I decide to go. And I didn't want to not go last minute and waste a spot that someone else could have had on the bus.
4 hours later we arrive at Rochester Institute of Technology. I relax, cheer on teammates, drink my coffee, then start warming up for the mile at about noon. Still feel okay. Not good but definitely could feel worse. Two teammates and I are in the fastest (of three) heat. There's only about 8 of us in the heat as a few kids scratched. The race goes out at a decent pace. Theres a clear gap forming between my group of three and the rest of the field. I went out in 33 and I decided not to go with the front pack (although I should have). Ran a decently even race, and went back and forth with a kid the whole race. Closed in a 30 last lap and had more left in the tank. Here's what my coach had for cumulative splits:
209m: 35
409m: 67
609m: 1:41
809m: 2:14
1009m: 2:50
1209m: 3:26
1409m: 4:01
Final time: 4:31.48
Legs felt good, lungs did not. But I'm happy with how I ran.
About 3 hours later I ran the first leg in the third heat of the 4X400m relay. My splits were about 25.5 and 27.5 for a 53.09. I'm happy considering it was a 200m track and I was lead leg. I checked the video of the race and timed myself at 53.04 so I'm happy to say I'm at least a 53 flat 400m runner indoors.
We're at spire this weekend and I'm running the 800m and the 4x400m again, so we'll so how this goes. I'll follow up with more information
Week ending in 1/23:
Sunday: 6.5 miles easy (7:15)
Monday: AM 10X400m @ mile pace (on treadmill; averaged 64-65) 3 min rest + 3X150m fast
PM 3 mile tempo (5:49, 5:36, 5:27)
Tuesday: AM 3 miles easy (7:20) + Lifting
PM 9 miles easy (7:13) + Hurdles and strides
Wednesday: 8X400m in 60sec on the treadmill. 2 min rest. Difficult, but obviously not real 60 second quarters.
Thursday: 9 miles easy (7:28) + Strides
Friday: 4 miles easy (7:30) + Handoffs and Strides
Saturday: Open 800m (1:58.1)
4X4 Leg #2 split (51.5) (relay in 3:26)
Week total: 57 miles
Small invitational at the Spire Institute. Coach wanted everyone to run the open 800 to see who should be on the 4X800m next week. For those who don’t know, Spire is a 300m track. I was in the slower of two heats. I went out and off the turn I found myself in first so I went with it. Ended up leading the entire race by a couple seconds (second place was above 2 minutes). Splits of (roughly) 28, 29, 30, 31.
About 60-90min rest then 4X4. I got the baton in fourth place (I was leg two) and handed off in third. I don’t feel like I have the top speed to get out much under 25 seconds but I’m always able to turn it on a little at 250-300m in. I was very happy with my 51.5 split.
Next meet I’m just running the 4X800m and the 4X400m A team relays since we are trying to qualify both of those. This will free me up to run the mile (and obtain my original goal) at the last three regular season indoor meets we have.