BUTLER!!!!!!!!!

I know. He's a good guy. And he did make the grades.

Why would you assume I'm jealous?

Why are you singling out Butler? What about the 3rd place women's team, Providence?... All internationals in the top 7 at NCAAs except the fifth runner.

http://friars.collegesports.com/sports/w-xc/spec-rel/112204aaa.html

I don't think anyone here is singling out Butler. I've not once said that there was something wrong with having a foreign-laden team. It's worked well for a number of universities over the years...including Butler. The only thing I've tried to stress with these posts is that...these teams aren't better simply because they have foreign athletes. It's the maturity, experience, and talent that makes these athletes and their teams special. It has nothing to do with their nationality. Again...how often does a team have 5-6 talented, experienced runners over the age of 22 years? This is what makes Butler such a quality team...not the fact that all their top runners are international. I'm not singling out Butler...just using them as an example.

What about Shannon Butler ????

who?

Crocodile. First off you're way off base. Two key points...not once have I said that recruiting in such a way has any drawbacks and I definitely didn't say that Butler/Franklin are intelligent by taking advantage of stupid Americans. Get your facts straight.

Guy...honestly, it's like you're trying to start an argument. Go back and read all the other posts and you'll see I'm not bashing Butler, foreign athletes, or anyone. I'm just stressing the reason why Butler and other foreign-laden teams should do well at NCAA's...and how experience and maturity play a role in their success.

How can you say these guys are "inexperienced as hell"? All these guys have a good number of running/racing years behind them. They're all mature, talented runnner (which I've stated over and over again through these posts -- sounds real erogant) who have competed at a high level for sometime before ever competing at the American Collegiate level. Yeah...I agree the courses and competition are different, but come on it's still running and racing. And even if this is a good point (though I think it's kinda moot) it still doesn't change the fact that these guys are still older and more experienced in even their first year in the collegiate system. And by their second year they're a year older(usually 22-24 years of age), they've adjusted to their new enviroment, schooling, coaching, american lifestyle, etc...and they should be ready to roll...just as Butler did this year.

And finally...I don't think any of my posts express my American Pride or ego. Dude...you have no idea you I am. I've got plenty of foreign friends, many are past collegiate teammates. And who whooped my ass?

Gather yourself before you reply...I'd hate to see you make a fool of yourself again. Geez.

[quote]Magnum wrote:

I'm just stressing the reason why Butler and other foreign-laden teams should do well at NCAA's...and how experience and maturity play a role in their success.

Yeah, that's why a team with little experience won over a teams with a lot more experience.

It's no secrect that top talent often beats experience and maturity.

Like it or not, Joe Franklin has built a very successful Cross Country/Distance program at Butler. Not everyone will agree with building a program with foreigners but Joe is likely doing what is right for the school he coaches at. I am sure that he would love to recruit and coach Americans at Butler but the reality is that there is not enough talent to go around and he is doing what he needs to do to have a winning program at his particular insitution. It always amazes me that no one seems to complain about the foreigners at some of the "name" schools (Arkansas, Providence) but when it is a smaller school/program that does well, they seem to be a target for criticism.

What is the difference with a college having a team of 5th year seniors and one that gets athletes that have done 3 years in college in England. I think CU second scorer in the womens was a freshmen.

A coach has to keep his/her job, if the best athletes want to go to a top ranked school, if you are last in the draft pick so to speak, would you get non-American athletes or slower athletes? I have heard of a D1 coach that said US athletes ask for two much, foreigners don't. US high school athletes run 5k, others have been racing 8/10k so less of a step up. As far I as could see, foreign athletes raise the standard, and the first 30 Americans still get a All-American Cert no matter how may imports there are ahead.

olly laws training log leading up to the NCAA'a is on university-athletics.co.uk

It is quite an amusing read, I'm sure he finds all this fuss quite amusing as well. Be glad it wasn't a total mudbath at nationals......he would have won the f***er then

canrun, can you actually run or are you just some cunt that hides behind a shit name? to be honest you sound like a complete twat that probably hasn’t run in the NCAAs, making you a jealous wanker. Tell you what you can go f*** yourself. So what if the team is all foreign we probably still beat your shit school. You are a homo.

So, Magnum, you're basically saying that Butler and Joe Franklin are incredibly intelligent to take advantage of stupid Americans, who have failed to create any kind of "club" running circuit.

If we had clubs established in America, kids could sit out after high school for two years, train their asses off, and then enroll in college 2-3 years later.

Unfortunately, unlike you, people have lives outside of running, and want to MAKE MONEY, so they choose not to sit out of college (except BYU of course).

So what are the drawbacks to the way Butler recruits?

Check last year's nationals results. Only one Butler athlete qualified. These guys came in inexperienced as hell. The courses are different here, as is the competition. It takes about a year for these guys to adjust.

THEN, look at 2005. The team loses their top 8 runners, Americans included. They will have to bring in 5 new, inexperienced foreign athletes to place well again. This is no easy task, but if a few Americans also come to Butler, forming a "backbone" that will last 4-5 years rather than only 1-2, this team could take off.

The coaches that should be criticized here are the ones giving away scholarships to worthless 10:00 2-milers when they could be getting real talent.

Look at it this way--NBA teams don't recruit/draft players from only the USA. Having this sort of closed-border plan will never work because in order to win games, you MUST BRING IN TALENT! Much of that talent is from over-seas.

I'm glad that Magnum has made such a big deal about this post. This will add to the education of all of the foreign athletes in America by showing them how many egocentric f***ers we have over here.

I, though, didn't vote for Bush. I'm really done with the "Let's attack the rest of the world" motto that he has. Instead, why don't we all make like the title of this website and RUN.

And, Magnum, While you're out there, don't let your "American Pride" or Ego get in the way of the fact that we just whooped your fairy ass.