Rosa Associates and Volare Sports suspended 6 months

On the blood sampling form the athlete has to fill out when a blood sample is collected for the bio passport, one of the questions is:

Has the athlete resided or trained at altitude (>1000m) during the last two weeks?

Staying at altitude affects your blood values for a time afterwards. (And that is why various endurance sports athletes since long has had altitude camps right before big championships, they want raised haemoglobin values.) The unpredictable effect of the altitude stay makes results of blood samples collected right after an altitude stay too uncertain for the bio passport system, and they are not taken into account.

Blood testing someonefor the bio passport system right after they arrive from Eldoret is an utter waste of resources.[/quote]

Which ties in with previous posts.

VAcoach wrote:

It really upsets me reading the crap that is being posted here by people who have never been to kenya, don't know a Kenyan, and then assuming accusations are true just because they are made. These are people simply trying to feed their families. The only avenue they have open to them is running. They would trade places with the cubicle trolls that post here any day that sit and pass judgment. Does this need to survive lead some to cheat? Probably. Does this reflect the majority of Kenyan runners out there, hell no.

Fair enough, you're pissed off but, all you're saying is same as the "crap that is being posted here by people" and that is "...sit and pass judgment. Does this... lead some to cheat? Probably. Does this reflect the majority of Kenyan runners out there, hell no."

Pot meet Kettle wrote:

Fair enough, you're pissed off but, all you're saying is same as the "crap that is being posted here by people" and that is "...sit and pass judgment. Does this... lead some to cheat? Probably. Does this reflect the majority of Kenyan runners out there, hell no."

What were you actually trying to say?

Interesting and honest comment.

Doping is a possibility but why would doping start in 2007? You say that is when CERA became available. Well EPO was easily available early on in the century. I would say the time period coincides when the Kenyans also quit focusing on the track. A ton more guys said "I'm a marathoner" after Wanjiru in 2008.

Neutral Observertard wrote:

What were you actually trying to say?

What were you actually trying to ask?

Mircera?? Are you kidding? This is not a magic undetectable drug, it's a drug that is so easy to detect that a reliable test came out immediately and in 2008 they nabbed a few TdF guys who stupidly thought that new = undetectable.

Another thing that could have happened after 2007 is better availability of Drs. (ahem) and logistics/resources for blood doping.

wejo wrote:

Doping is a possibility but why would doping start in 2007? You say that is when CERA became available. Well EPO was easily available early on in the century. I would say the time period coincides when the Kenyans also quit focusing on the track. A ton more guys said "I'm a marathoner" after Wanjiru in 2008.

epnope wrote:

Mircera?? Are you kidding? This is not a magic undetectable drug, it's a drug that is so easy to detect that a reliable test came out immediately and in 2008 they nabbed a few TdF guys who stupidly thought that new = undetectable.

yes ,and they nabbed 1 track and field athlete Ramzi..

the token moroccan

wejo wrote:

Doping is a possibility but why would doping start in 2007? You say that is when CERA became available. Well EPO was easily available early on in the century. I would say the time period coincides when the Kenyans also quit focusing on the track. A ton more guys said "I'm a marathoner" after Wanjiru in 2008.

Not an expert but according to this different types of EPO became available at different times:

Epoetin alfa in 1983.

Epoetin beta in 1988.

Darbepoetin alfa in 2005

Epoetin delta DYNEPO This is one of the newest agents currently available.

"EPO abuses

So-called "EPO-doping" has become popular among some high performance athletes who inject it prior to a competition to boost their red blood cell count and thereby enhance their performance. Although previously undetectable, a test has been devised to catch athletes who adopt this illegal measure. The new epoetin-delta, DYNEPO, may not be detectable in the standard urine tests, and is of some concern to sports authorities."

Any experts out there care to comment?

CERA was appealing because the different structure meant that it would not be detectable in urine. We've heard Canova say on here that no blood tests were conducted in (2013 or 2014, I can't remember) in Kenya...

The other upside is its downside as well: it lasts longer in the body. Bigger effect window, but a longer "glow" period.

No. I don't think Kenya's drug problem is a CERA problem. I think there is a complex problem that cannot be isolated to one camp, doctor or agent. One set of athletes may be using coricosteroids theought the year, legally, outside of competition (and they only compete in two marathons and some prep races). I think another group is injecting epo. I think another group was met by a doctor with connections to AICAR or gw1516. One coach might put painkillers in their race day waterbottles. I think there are clean athletes who are naive to their doped competition, and more who get intimidated by the ethics bending into the road success, and drop out. I think every doping scenario is playing out at the same time.

The evidence for a deep and broad problem is there. Foreign doctors accused and caught. Domestic docs accused and caught. Agents accused of providing. Athletes getting caught. The federation shown as corrupt. The ineptidude of anti-doping. I think the burden is now on on the defenders to say how the best the best are somehow an exception to it, when all examples of other nations, other sports, and other pursuits show the rarity of that case.

AK suspended entire management agencies where the vast majority of the athletes are clean. Of course there are some who cheat in this system and they should be identified using scientific measures and severely punished. However, I didn't see MLB shut down the Yankees when ARod (among others on there roster) tested positive. I don't think anyone would have found that fair when the overwhelming majority of the Yankkes were clean (though as a Red Sox fan I would like to think they were all dirty).

The actions of Kiplagat should not be evidence that there is a real problem with doping in Kenya. He is one of the most corrupt individuals in all of sports, an athletic gangster. This action is leverage for him, yet another example of how he steps on the innocent to further his own goals instead of serving the athletes he is charged with protecting. He is not calling for all athletes who wish to represent Kenya in international IAAF events to be sequestered at a central camp to train with their management agencies with WADA oversight subject to random and frequent inspection.

The problem I have with many of these posts is their assertions of guilt by association (something our country guarantees against in a court of law). I have a problem with people making accusations that can screw with a runner's ability to provide for their families and villages.

The East Africans are the best distance runners in the world and have been since they burst upon the world stage in the 1960s, but it's becoming increasingly evident that a problem exists and has for some time. I think there are still many great performances over the past 15-20 years that were not aided by doping -- I just don't know which ones.

As someone who has always been a big fan of the sport (but not very good myself), this kinda sucks. I recall reading an interview with Shorter years ago where he said if something were not done to curtail this sort of thing, medals would boil down to who had the best chemist. We're probably not far from that now.

The PED info in this thread is dated. Both dynepo and mircera are detectable in blood and in urine. Whether those tests are being performed is another question.

Lots more to come on the domestic front in the next 10-12 days as well. Things are just getting started.

I remember when I put it together that Armstrong and Postal doped. For a time I thought it was funny that the euros kept getting busted yet still couldn't find a way to beat Armstrong over the Alps. At some point in '02 or so nearly every top rider had been knicked except for Lance and it finally dawned on me that the chances of him riding clean and beating an entire peloton full of dopers was practically zero. In a similar light I loved to watch Geb, Tergat, and El G compete and gave them the benefit of the doubt to be clean. Other runners were 'obviously' dirty. As time goes on and the skeletons are slowly trotted out, the chances of any top athlete of that time running clean diminishes considerably. It's disappointing to say the least.

As a long time follower of cycling I knew Armstrong was doped to the gills after he won the 1999 TDF prologue, it was just "not normal" (you'll get that reference if you read Hamilton's book) !

dooder wrote:

Lots more to come on the domestic front in the next 10-12 days as well. Things are just getting started.

huh...Rupp and Farah (since he trains in Oregon) going down ?

Doping is an integral part of the sport. I dare to bet that a majority is doped to some extend. So there is a minority "clean". On the top this minority is near 0.

Its sad that Kenya a Banana Republic takes this action.

Don't be naive to believe Kenyans are somehow more "Doped" then for example the Oregon guys.

So this whole case stinks. Just take down the opportunity more and more to make the west conquer the sport again???

Beh!! i don't think so, not until we are so poor here that we will live on 1 meal a day for years and meanwhile run daily. that will train your fat burning :)

jjjjjj wrote:

This turmoil does not augur well for Kenyan athletics this summer, so it is another excellent chance for American runners (like 2013, with a spate of high profile runners injured or 'injured') to get unexpected medals at world's and high placings in the Diamond League.

Yes, because Kenyans dope and Americans don't...

I want the American dopers hung as well.