and do it. Simple.
Everything in the body is biological.
If it was just will power then people would not degrade with age.
The genes for altitude adaptation are documented to some degree and the rest of the blanks will be filed in soon I'm sure.
and do it. Simple.
Everything in the body is biological.
If it was just will power then people would not degrade with age.
The genes for altitude adaptation are documented to some degree and the rest of the blanks will be filed in soon I'm sure.
Taking the altitude argument away from East Africa for a moment - why don't Flag, Boulder, Salt Lake & Denver kids totally dominate Footlocker every year?
messi wrote:
Taking the altitude argument away from East Africa for a moment - why don't Flag, Boulder, Salt Lake & Denver kids totally dominate Footlocker every year?
Because altitude means nothing without genetics to go with it.
We might be barking up the wrong tree...http://www.radiolab.org/tags/running/
disease selection wrote:
Africans have likely had just as much pressure from disease. The genetic selection for people able to cope with a host of red blood cell destroying organisms must help a bit.
Very true. Plague was a gigantic selective pressure in Europe, but there are plenty of other diseases in Africa.
Don't create false dichotomies -- what if it's a complex combination of willpower, motivation, environment and many hundreds of genes?We do not know everything about genetics, because they are really quite complex, but neither are we still in the superstition stage.Again, I repeat my recommendation reading the Sports Gene to see how athletes of all sports have specialised in the last few decades.
Your Favorite Pupil wrote:
failed roast wrote:That was heartfelt but weak.
The system work because the genes are there. If you want to win horseraces you recruit thoroughbreds, not mustangs.
You're probably right, but before I totally concede my point, could you do me a favor and name these genes that give rise to wave after wave of elite Kenyan runners? Could you direct me to the sequence of codons that help a person run 4:40 pace for 26.2 miles, or sub 3:30 for 1500 meters? While were at it, let's just take blood samples of all of America's youth and predetermine who the next Foot Locker champ is, or NCAA record holder!
The reality is that the world still does not know what causes a human being to be faster than another human being. We are still only debating the variables, and obviously we all have our opinions over which of these variables carries more water. But my pet peeve is when people like yourself are satisfied by forwarding an argument that seems scientific when in reality is it still just superstition. Why is it that one argument that anchors itself to ethno-history weak, yet another that rests upon the assumption of a mythical gene strong? You are content to hide behind a facade of science by only giving credence to what is quantifiable, and condescend towards those who argue in favor of the intangible, i.e. will power, experience, the human spirit. These may be cliche's within your world of cynicism, but make no mistake, just because something cannot be measure in a controlled environment does excuse its existence or its power.
You assume that all people are equally motivated, and therefore the difference between a successful Kenyan runner and yourself must lie within a strand of DNA. But here is the scary thought; what if the difference wasn't biological, what if it wasn't about thin legs or hemoglobin, what if the difference between that nameless African and yourself was simply that he wanted it more than you?
That is a pill the western world has a tough time swallowing...
You can read a study like this and get an idea of how small(relatively) changes can effect the way things work.
You probably don't need all sorts of changes to make specific running related processes work a little bit better.
People seem to think you need enough genetic change to grow a second pair of legs.
Human morphology clearly plays a key role in their success. Recent studies point to a correlation between the size (girth) of the calf muscle and distance running success. The smaller the calf size the better, as you expend less energy each time you raise your foot. Strength to weight ratio also very important. Heat dispersion plays a key role as well. lighter people shed heat more quickly than heavier people. At the speeds these guys run, the biggest risk is over-heating. The East Africans have a lot of the right physical attributes for success at distance events. Long Legs, thin calf muscles, a high center of gravity, not too tall, large lung capacity, a light and narrow bone structure, and low natural body fat. The final ingredient is a strong work ethic and culture of hard work. They will probably dominate distance events forever. That is not to say that no one else has a chance. But the odds are in their favor.
But aren't there going to be a certain number of people from every different group that have these qualities?
Perhaps these qualities are more common among certain groups but we know that people who are not Ethiopian or Kenyan have these qualities--Frank Shorter, Lasse Viren, Galen Rupp. . . .
Further point: the Ethiopian male runners and the Kenyan male runners clearly have different physiques. The Ethiopians are shorter and stockier (for runners). Haile vs. Tergat.
Chris Derrick wrote:
But aren't there going to be a certain number of people from every different group that have these qualities?
Perhaps these qualities are more common among certain groups but we know that people who are not Ethiopian or Kenyan have these qualities--Frank Shorter, Lasse Viren, Galen Rupp. . . .
Further point: the Ethiopian male runners and the Kenyan male runners clearly have different physiques. The Ethiopians are shorter and stockier (for runners). Haile vs. Tergat.
Of course but it's incredibly low. For some groups the number is 0.
Even those who have the qualities required still seem to be lacking that tiny bit extra.
No evidence just my observations. Funny you should mention that particular athlete though because I was thinking of her as I was writing and thinking should I post this or not. She is certainly not smooth as silk but she has something physiologically going for her. Not saying there are not caucasian anomalies like Coe or Ovett for example. Or even Robbie Andrews or Jeremy Wariner. Super smooth.
Chris Derrick wrote:
we know that people who are not Ethiopian or Kenyan have these qualities--Frank Shorter, Lasse Viren, Galen Rupp. . . .
Once upon a time people believed Finns were genetically superior runners. Viren was the last one, though. Somehow the genes migrated to Africa during the 60's.
One thing's for sure, the Finns were not born at altitude.
You've piqued my curiousity. Exactly what have you observed that makes you write:"the simple fact East Africans have in essence, higher grade neural circuitry when it comes to running"particularly when you tell us:"that there is no test for the neurological aspect I am pointing out"Is it based purely on observed smoothness?
klubkip1 wrote:
No evidence just my observations. Funny you should mention that particular athlete though because I was thinking of her as I was writing and thinking should I post this or not. She is certainly not smooth as silk but she has something physiologically going for her. Not saying there are not caucasian anomalies like Coe or Ovett for example. Or even Robbie Andrews or Jeremy Wariner. Super smooth.
Can anyone acknowledge that their are obvious differences in physique. Yes there are tall skinny men from all locals around the world, but hasn't anyone else noticed the difference between a really good Kenyan and really good American, British, Japanese, etc? Has anyone here ever trained/run with a group of runners including Kenyan(s). I have. They are just built differently. Typically, smaller torso, higher set thinner calves, rounder bones. I don't think these traits would make a good baseball, football, even a tennis player, however, any chance they lend themselves to distance running?
Look at Rupps legs compared to a Kenyan 5k world class runner, or even Mo.
If you don't notice a difference I just cant discuss anymore
Bad Wigins wrote:
Once upon a time people believed Finns were genetically superior runners. Viren was the last one, though. Somehow the genes migrated to Africa during the 60's.
The genes migrated through Great Britain first and many seeded North Africa before settling in East Africa.
Yes purely on my observations. To use an analogy its like watching a video game with a high end GPU and then with low end GPU.The movement of Sub Saharan runners in very fluid and one complete motion. This extends not just to running but other sports and activities such as dancing. Of course anomalies in Caucasian and Asian people exist. I cant see how its possible to test for it on a physiological basis. If u want a definition of smooth though, watch some vids of the great Kipketer. Sometimes though the upper body belies the smoothness from the pelvis down so something to keep in mind as well. Anyway just my 2 yen as I am living in Japan at the moment.
How many times the same questions
You can't do much running half way up Mt Everest but try beating a Sherpa at running at high altitude eg Mt Everest Marathon. Most other areas around world just don't run
Is it Shorter who said to paraphrase altitude + drugs we have no chance.
Both have an effect on running - wherever you are from
rojo wrote:
[quote]stayed forever wrote:
Africans are evolved at altitude. South Americans just got there in evolutionary terms.
The African altitude adaptation is deeply entrenched in their genome, particularly that of the Ethiopians.
People who have read Sports Gene know this is incorrect. The key appears to be living at altitude but only having recently migrated there. The people like in Nepal are too used to living at altitude that they don't really respond to it.
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Try getting up Everest without a Sherpa
As for Sports Gene does reading it make everything in it a fact!
The other factors you mention are more to do with it for Nepal the outlet is to be a mountain guide or Gurkha and the altitudes are much higher than in Kenya making them better at peforming at very high altitudes. Additionally the terrain and temperature is not conductive to running fast. Check out the results for Everest Marathon and tell me they have not adapted.
ukathleticscoach wrote:
As for Sports Gene does reading it make everything in it a fact!
Great response. Really.
Within the last 50 years, international elite long and middle-distance runners have been disproportionately of East African descent.[12] East African elite endurance athletes are primarily of Nilotic (especially Kalenjin), Cushitic (especially Oromo and Somali), and Berber descent. Within Africa, elite endurance runners have disproportionately come from the East African countries Ethiopia, Eritrea, Djibouti, Somalia, Sudan, Kenya, Tanzania, Rwanda, and Burundi, with smaller numbers of elite endurance runners from the southern African countries Zambia, Zimbabwe (especially from Manicaland), Lesotho, and South Africa.[12] Among Arab countries, endurance runners have been disproportionately of Maghrebi descent, hailing primarily from Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia. On the other hand, West Africa and Central Africa have rarely produced elite endurance runners.
Elite endurance runners are disproportionately speakers of Afro-Asiatic languages (primarily the Cushitic and Berber branches) and Southern Nilotic languages. Cushitic, Berber, and Southern Nilotic speakers all have very high frequencies of the paternal Y-DNA Haplogroup E-M215 (E1b1b), pointing to relatively recent common patrilineal descent among speakers of these language groups. Speakers of these three language groups have also historically all been pastoralists. Haplogroup E-215 (E1b1b) is closely correlated with the dispersal of Afroasiatic languages, which were spread by pastoralists within the past 10,000 years. The high frequencies of this Y-DNA haplogroup among Southern Nilotic populations is due to historical admixture with speakers of South Cushitic languages, who had been absorbed into Nilotic-speaking populations within the past few thousand years as Nilotic pastoralists expanded southward into modern-day southwestern Kenya and Tanzania.
Disparities in athletic performance are also found within other parts of the world. Within Latin America, elite endurance runners are disproportionately from high-altitude countries such as Mexico, Guatemala, Colombia, Ecuador, and Peru, while sprinters are primarily of West African descent, as can be seen at regional competitions such as the Central American and Caribbean Championships in Athletics. Within China, elite endurance runners are disproportionately from northern and western provinces with many athletes being of non-Han Chinese heritage, while sprinters are primarily from southern provinces, as can be seen in regional competitions such as the National Games of China and Chinese Athletics Championships. During the early 1900s, the world's top endurance runners were disproportionately Finnish, earning them the nickname "Flying Finns."
Sources
Hirbo, Jibril Boru. 2011. Complex Genetic History of East African Human Populations. Doctoral dissertation, University of Maryland, College Park.
https://drum.lib.umd.edu/handle/1903/11443
Trombetta et al. 2015, Phylogeographic refinement and large scale genotyping of human Y chromosome haplogroup E provide new insights into the dispersal of early pastoralists in the African continent