With 5 world titles and a WR, is Mo Farah the GOAT (Greatest of all-time)? We say yes...

The whole contrived debate reminds me of something the fanboys over at FloTrack would put together and argue about so they have some more annoying content for their annoying site. You guys are better than this.

Really....the whole premise is that Farah would be GOAT IF he get silver and gold in olympics next year. Yeah that would be debatable IF it happened so why dont we wait until it happens to create the debate.

But Rojo, nobody in the real world does this. If there were other people in the race capable of setting the record the runner trying to set the record might end up being a pacesetter and lose the race while setting up others to set the record. In any recent record attempt there's never any SERIOUS COMPETITION in the race, only pacesetters. In Rupp's 10k there was no serious competition, no one who raced Diamond League. Put Gebremeskel in the race and I guarantee you, Rupp would not set any kind of record, he would just be trying to beat Gebremeskel. Not true at all that (in the real world) why it's not done. Especially now, there is no one runner who is anointed the best who no one else can run with -- even Farah. Farah's PRs are way down the list so no one would be afraid of him in a record attempt. But if Farah does attempt a record this season I'd bet good money there would only be pacesetters, no serious competition in the attempt -- I wouldn't even try to call it a "race." By your theory the Olympic final would be the most conducive to setting a world record with all the best competition. But in the real world, everyone just tries to win. That's hard enough. It's next to impossible to race for time AND place at the same time.

Mo Farah is the GOT (greatest of today). Nowhere near being the GOAT. And the only true GOAT is Maurice Greene, anyways.

Malmo, did you read the article? I thought Jon was out of his mind as well and said so. That's why he had the pro/con debate. Jon makes some good points so it's interesting to contemplate as I think it's a ludicrous concept for anyone who is 35 plus. But Jon is younger - 25- so the mindblowingness of Haile wasn't experienced first-hand by him.

In the 5k WR Bekele took the lead at 2k. Then dropped a 7:30 last 3k

In the 10k WR Bekele took the lead at 5km and had company then dropped a 13:07 last 5k

Both were races!!!! The only problem is no one can keep up when you close out 5ks with 7:30 3ks. Heck I think Mo Farah would have a hard time keeping up with Bekele for just the final 3k.

Sammy Wanjiru was in the 10k where Bekele broke the world record. Sammy went on to set the Half marathon world record just a year or two later, so that is some serious competition.

Rojo gunning for troll of the year already. Good start

The only reason Bekele didn't drop sub 26:30 10ks in world championships is because he always doubled.

Mo Farah has the world indoor 2 mile record true, but lets be real the 7:24 indoor 3000 record basically the same event is about a 7:57-7:58 for 2 miles.

Lets see Farah go after the indoor 3000 WR or better yet the 7:20 outdoor 3000 WR, or the 12:37 WR for 5000 or 26:17 WR for 10000 or 58:23 Half marathon WR or 2:02.57 Marathon WR.

Also does K. Bekele get credit for his cross country career?, or does Geb get credit for his longevity at the highest level?

The one thing Farah has going is his career is still going if he doubles at the world champs in Beijing, then in Rio in 2016 and in London world champs in 2017, then maybe he can do be considered the best ever without a super fast time/world record.

Noooooo!

Lasse Viren is better. Look it up. 4 OLYMPICS golds and world records. But most important he had to run heats. They don't do that any more.

Plus, if Mo Farah can run an 8:21 two-mile just 4 day after running two 5ks, two 10ks and a marathon, then maybe he can be considered a GOAT.

Viren did that in 1976.

olold runner wrote:

Noooooo!

Lasse Viren is better. Look it up. 4 OLYMPICS golds and world records. But most important he had to run heats. They don't do that any more.

Plus, if Mo Farah can run an 8:21 two-mile just 4 day after running two 5ks, two 10ks and a marathon, then maybe he can be considered a GOAT.

Viren did that in 1976.

Idiot

Cam Levins ran a 8:15 two mile just 30 minutes after a 3:54 mile indoors and he ain't close to Mo Farah.

rojo wrote:

-Rojo

PS. One last thing. I know Haile never did the 5k/10k double at the Olympics but does anyone really think he wouldnt have beaten venuste niyongabo in 1996? Please.

Maybe .. but they'd both very likely have been beaten by Komen, so that makes any point here moot.

wejo wrote

"To be fair to Jon, much of Jon's GOAT argument was based on IF Farah wins double golds this year and picks up another Olympic gold. A lot of the non GOAT arguments weren't projecting ahead. So Jon looks like the fall guy."

Well, to be fair to KB and Geb et al, then we should at least give them a few 'what ifs' as well.

IF KB breaks the marathon wr

If Geb had run the OG 5000m in Atlanta and won

If Komen's career had lasted longer

If Aouita had made some different choices in which OG races he entered.

The very premise of the "Article" is

"I told Robert that if Farah sweeps the 5k/10k at Worlds this year and the Olympics next year, it’s going to be very hard to say he isn’t what I wrote he could be in the WR recap — the greatest track distance runner of all-time."/i]

.. he would additionally have to (accomplish one of the following)

-win multiple major marathons

-run the marathon world record/or marathon pb of 2:03:30 or better

-win Olympic marathon gold (he’ll be 37 in 2020)

-break Bekele’s 5k world record"

Sure, he who frames the argument wins it.

You're saying that IF Farah sweeps the 5000/10 000m at this years's worlds, then again in the OG in 2016, and then additionally either wins multiple major marathons, with a pb of better than 2:03:30, wins an OG marathon gold or breaks Bekele's 5000m wordl record you might consider him in the running for GOAT?

Those are no small accomplishments.

How about this? If Farah runs for the next 10 years, at the pro level, doesn't lose a race, breaks every conceivable WR and OR for every distance from 3000m to the marathon, wins double gold in both WC and the OG as well as the OG marathon, he'll be the GOAT? Sure. Why not? Until then, he's not.

The GOAT is based on accomplishments, not goals. If we draw up a list of accomplishments that haven't yet been achieved, anyone can be the GOAT, right? How about if Caleb Ndiku wins the WC and OG 1500-5000m double, sets WRs in everything from 1500m - 5000m, doubles again in 2017, 2019 and 2020, before running the first ever sub 2:00hr marathon, can he be considered the GOAT?

Wejo, you keep suggesting the discussion is about 'if', yet both the article title and the thread title state a present tense. That's trolling, if nothing else.

2008-2009 Kenenisa Bekele would crush anyone IMO. He also had the longevity/durability to get 8 combined titles, and was dominant in his prime in a way Farah is not. He also ran faster and has world records. So this argument is silly unless you could somehow render the slower times irrelevant via Farah not being good at time-trials and better in championships. Look at their championship splits and I don't believe you've got anything.

wejo wrote:

Farah needs to go through 2017 for 6 straight years. If you start your reign of dominance the year before the Olympics or during the Olympics it's easier to claim GOAT status as people put so much stock in the Olympics. Farah right now is the best distance running the world the last 3 years. Jon was projecting out if he does that for 5 years. And the fact doubling is easier now distorts the picture..

I'm not even sure that's accurate. What did Farah do in 2014 that keeps his reign of dominance? He was beaten by KB in the half at the end of 2013, then was smoked by half a dozen marathoners in London, and that doesn't include all the other marathoners he DIDN'T run against who w he'd have been beaten by. During the rest of the year he achieved what, exactly?

I'd argue that the #1 5000m in 2014 was Caleb Ndiku and Galen the #1 10 000m runner. Farah prolly made more money than both of them put together. But his "dominance" on the track for 2014 is arguable, at best.

Viren.

5K and 10K golds in successive Olympics and World Records at both distances.

Thanks rojo for taking a closer look at my sit-and-kick scenario with Michael Johnson. I agree with Kellogg that Johnson would have trouble beating Farah in such a 10,000m, however I wrote in my original post about a 5,000m between them, not 10,000m. I'm curious to hear if Kellogg would change his mind in that case.

Regardless, when I created the scenario, I called it ridiculous on purpose because it was. The point was more to choose the extrema as a method of demonstration. I was saying that, on a continuum, as you ease the strain of a distance race so that a speed-guy is not tired by the final lap, the speed guy will win...and if you take an extreme example it's evident that a sit-and-kick 'slow' race ends up saying nothing of the victor's distance prowess. So the significance of at least some of Farah's golds is thereby reduced compared to those of Kenenisa, Haile, and others.

I'd like to hear more about "speed in reverse." What do you and John mean by that?

Regarding my presentation of some of Bekele's credentials, I knowingly left out a discussion about his amazing XC accomplishments. My reason was that your article preceding this thread seemed framed mostly in the context of track accomplishments, so I wanted to keep within that frame. I thought doing so would more properly refute Jon Gault's assertion that Farah could soon become the GOAT.

As much as I would love to, I don't think it's quite fair yet to bring up Kenenisa's XC wins when arguing his potential GOAT status over Haile's GOAT status. Each athlete has a 2nd surface of dominance, and for now the 2 cancel each other out to some extent in my opinion. *** THUS I AM WAITING PATIENTLY FOR KENENISA TO REALLY OWN THE ROADS. IF HE DOES, IT'LL BE MORE DIFFICULT TO CONTINUE CALLING HAILE THE GREATEST. As you've said yourself, talent doesn't go away, so it's only a matter of time before history repeats itself like Bekele's Paris win, or better.

Comparing Mo's times to Geb, Tergat, Sihane, Bek is like comparing todays sluggers against Sosa, McGuire and Bonds. It is a different era. Now that isn't to say that Mo isn't on something but it's probably a lot less than the freewheeling days of no EPO tests and biological passports.

Also, doubling today, with less heats is materially tougher than doubling with more heats decades ago as well. The competition is broader and deeper today than a decade ago (when discounting for drugs).

Racing trumps times when times are suspect so Mo gets the nod as GOAT if he wins out; double Gold WC and Double Gold Olympics, regardless of times.

What do you think?

Thinking too far ahead. Double gold at the next Olympics is far from a sure thing for anyone. It's not even speculative.

What if there's an injury? What if the competition is too much?

Thanks wejo, that means a lot. I really enjoy writing about runner comparisons, especially if it's a Bekele piece.

As I said to rojo, Bekele may end up owning the roads as well, making Haile's GOAT status shaky, but for now I believe Haile's still the GOAT.

I have not read most of this thread, but all you need to know is that Farah is basically a rich man's Augustine Choge who ran less than 10 seconds faster than Emile Putteman's did in the indoor 2 mile. Both men ran world records----42 years apart. Enough said.