Longest Run in High School?

I know who you are wrote:

I'm HfH (...) from that thread that is now dead:P You posted a link there and now I have bookmarked DM.

When I saw your PBs I Immediately knew who you are:P

Serious, don't kill that workout. You are running at a pace way faster than your PB.

If I would convert (is this the correct word?) these times, I would run 8x400 at sub 60 and 8x200 at 28 while my 1500m PB is 64.4 per lap.

That workout would really be IMPOSSIBLE.

Alright I gotcha. You should make an account on DM. My 1500m pr(448) is long time ago, I am in much better shape now. If I did that workout when I ran my pr it would have been around 75-77 for 400s and probably 36-37 for 200s at the same effort and what not. I'm very confident I'm in sub 430 1500m shape.

1600m- 4:17

3200m- 9:15

5k- 15:26

14 miles, other than that though just 11 miles (9-11 miles was my long run)

I did the 14 miler just cause I felt like it, no particular reason

2:09/4:51/10:51

7 miles

Prs

4:00 -1600

8:34 -2 mile

5k -Woodward park CA state meet 14:24

13.1 miles. Don't tell coach Edwards.

14.3 HH

800 meters

All from the year I was in 8th/9th grades-- injuries and varying levels of interest prevented more than slight improvements over the next few years for me. Probably from coach having me run 60 mile weeks as a 14 year old. Go figure.

1. 1600m- 4:58

3200m- 11:01

5000m- 17:52

2. 10 miles

400m: 52.5 FAT

800m: 1:56.0

mile: 4:29.76

5k road: 16:46

13miles

Wow. 6:06 was my best mile in high school, 14:08 my best 3200m. My longest run to date was just shy of 8 miles. I took up running as a fat kid in 10th grade. I really like running and have begun to follow the sport very closely over the last 2 years with great enthusiasm, but I'm starting to think I don't belong on this site. Is everyone on LR elite, near-elite, or elitist?

born in 1984 wrote:

wait...i thought the mid-80s was the tail end of the running boom & everyone was still all about high mileage (and that it wasn't until the 90s that people were scared of it). have the bad*ss high-mileage guys who were in their glory days during the 70s/80s been lying to us???

The less is more thing definitely had its beginnings in the EARLY 80s so that by the mid-80s, it was the main mindset. 1984 Kinney Cross Country Champion (now Footlocker) Scott fry said, (paraphrased) "It's easy to be good in high school. You just put in the work because no one else is." He was right.

Typical training for me as a junior and senior in high school was:

Mon - 3 miles

Tue - 3.1 mile dual meet

Wed - 3 miles

Thu - 3 miles

Fri - NO PRACTICE. Rest for Saturday morning meet

Sat - 3.1 miles

Sun - OFF

Total = 15.2 miles. Oh, and if you think we did a lot of warmups and cool downs, you'd be mistaken. Maybe we ran 100 yards before a race, and I almost NEVER ran a cool down.

This was typical for high school kids (at least in Ohio) in the mid 80s. At that point, I had read Galloway's Book on Running (his first one before he got into the walking breaks crap), and he had people running a LOT even for a 10k. That was just not even close to something I could have thought of doing then, and my coaches stressed quality over quantity and staying free of injury. I had been out part of my sophomore year with an injury, so this idea sounded good to me.

So, easily from mid 80s to late 90s, high mileage was either a no-no or only the very extreme were doing that. I wish I had been privy to better training ideas when I was in high school, but it is what it is.

Here's some random stuff that you can put together to see how it got that way for me:

1) When I was in 6th grade, I wanted to play centerfield for the Cincinnati Reds. My middle school didn't have a cross country or track team, so the very first thought that I might be a runner came a couple weeks before freshman year when a friend of mine convinced me to join the CC team (he did so because I always won the mile in gym class and the distance races at Field Day). I hadn't trained at all and ran my first 2.5 mile race a couple weeks later. I was No. 2 on the team that day and by mid season I was the No. 1 runner and it stayed that way until I graduated (two different high schools).

2) ALL of my distance coaches at both high schools were of the 'less is more' mindset. They even had some success with their INDIVIDUAL athletes...a couple of school record holders (not including me which I would then become), a girl who was All-State, so who was I to argue? The teams weren't great, but there were individuals who were.

3) Like I said in another post, somewhere along this time, I read Galloway's Book on Running. It's actually a very good book for distance runners, but I was very much a beginner and thought of this book as something that adults did. My coaches, whom I respected, told us that less was more...train to run 3.1 miles hard by running 3 miles hard each day. And so we did. Once in a great while the coach would send us on a 5 mile run. Just the way it was.

I now have two kids in high school. My son is a freshman, and the other day he ran 10 miles in the morning and 4 in the evening. That's what they do now. I was a little concerned about this ramp up, because in his 8th grade middle school track season, they ran TWO miles a day and had one long run once of 4 miles. But, he started adding mileage the last week of May, was up to 6 and 7 milers by end of June and then 9 milers by end of July, and so now 10 miles seems like nothing to him. Just a different world now.

No question the early to mid 90's saw a continuation of the "less is more" philosophy. My program was renowned for high mileage and in hindsight I was doing 90-100 mpw from Jun-Oct with my Sunday run being anywhere from 0-5 miles given that Sunday was the only unsupervised day. We won state 3/4 years I was there and barely missed the 4th time so it was obviously a successful plan. Despite this the overwhelming majority of guys on my team thought the mileage made us slow and prompted burnout so we took every opportunity (some more than others) to cut workouts and/or sag up the pace. From Nov-Jan (unsupervised) I was lucky to run 20 mpw. From Feb-May (warm ups , cool downs and long runs mostly unsupervised) I was lucky to run 60 mpw. I look back on those days and realize that I missed an opportunity for further development by slacking during the winter and running mostly interval workouts and races in the spring. All in all, however, I was viewed as a hard worker on my team and by 90's standards. Talented guys that were running 4:15/9:10 on 90's training would be running 4:05/8:50 on today's training.

reading all these high mileage high school workouts really amazes me, because some of the results don't seem to merit the effort and time put in by some runners. I posted times of 4:29 and l0:04 on an earlier post with a longest run of 2 miles. Also our longest intervals were 440's and 660's on the track. We never ran in the summer or from nov. to feb. never ran cross ountry, played football in the fall and basket ball in winter.worked out about 3 weeks before first track meet.Ran about 15 miles A WEEK .In the l950's.In college I improved more than 20 seconds in the mile and over a minute in the 2 mile (we didn't run 5k's). That was on 45 miles aweek and longest run of 6 miles fartlek. Still didn't run in June and July or Dec. and Jan.But, I think we were more fit from a childhood spent outdoors and work on the farm and riding our bikes every where. In the 50's there was almost no information on training. Any coach that knew anything kept it to himself.

Sagarin wrote:

newname, although I didn't start running until age 17 and didn't start "training" until Fall cross country of senior year (45-50 mpw), I was totally unfamiliar with how other preps trained, had never heard of "The Harrier" or "The Runner," had never heard of Kinney's, and otherwise had a coach who didn't advise doubles, long Sunday runs, or high mileage. The summer before senior year, my mpw was roughly the same as Flagpole's. So I believe him.

My PRs adjusted for 5,500' to sea level were roughly 15:23 xc and 9:15 for 3200. I do remember looking at the TFN prep lists and was just blown away by guys like Scott Fry, thinking I just didn't have the talent.

My longest run was probably 10 or 11 miles and it felt like 20. As an aside, do you think all your heavy training as a prep led to a decline in health?

A) I started running in 6th grade ... cold turkey. Knew nothing about it. But if you want to be good at something you do it. We ran 2-4 miles in the AM three times a week and nothing else. However, I started getting The Runner that summer right away.

We were poor, but I bought The Complete Book of Running and Running the Lydiard Way and Running to The Top. I had a few other hacky books too. I read TaFnews when I could find it at a friend's house and other mags at the library.

So, my point is that you don't need to be super smart or super aware or rich to be aware of these things. I can see how you didn't know better because you started at 17, but I don't know how people could not deduce that 5-7-10-15 mile runs weren't better than 2-3 mile runs completely on their own, if they ran from 9th grade to 12th grade. I am not talking about Steve Flagpole, just anyone. This stuff was common practice in the mid-60s (just ask Marty Liquori) and was old hat 20 yrs later.

Our swim team used to swim 30 mpw in just five days.

I never said that I didn't believe him, I just said that the lack of the internet was not what was hampering the flow of information.

B) Looking at the lists, you were right, you didn't have the talent that Scott Fry had. Neither did I. No amount or approach in training would have made me an 8:50 2-miler like him.

C) I had different coaches through those yrs. None of them ever had us run "high mileage" ... I figured out all that on my own. I don't think I ever ran high mileage actually. I never ran more than 83-85 miles until Senior Summer. Like Malmo says, "You aren't even in the game unless you are doing 80 mpw."

D) Of course every doctor I saw suggested that running 80 mpw caused the decline in health. And, as you know, there is NO WAY I can prove it did not. but it is my opinion that IT DID NOT. Otherwise why don't 100-120 mile weeks that many HSers do consistently do them in as well? Also, once you have quit running for so long, why wouldn't the problem alleviate? Just my opinion based on long-term experience, no way to prove it.

that's awesome man. What times did you run in HS, College, and post-collegiate?

newname, you were committed, that's for sure. I admire your devotion, and I hope you got something out of your training and were able to run beyond high school. I wish I had the knowledge back then. I'm probably a tad younger than you, but I had a coach who used to tell us that he never trained over the summer in high school, just worked construction jobs in the early-mid 70s. How's that for reinforcement?

I'm sure you are correct. The access was there if you knew where to look, knew a good coach or teammate or friend from another team, had been around long enough, and, frankly, had the desire. I still think the 3-5 mile per day attitude prevailed for the majority, and, frankly, who wanted to run more than that unless you were among the very best? Not me. But I could be totally wrong.

As far as not even being in the game until you hit 80 mpw, that's probably also true, but that's the most I would ever advise a prep to run, having worked up to it. FWIW, I read many stories on here about preps or college athletes developing chronic mono or mystery ailments. Is it because of too many miles, not enough rest, and a crappy diet, genetics perhaps? Who knows? I think it all could factor.

1:56

4:21

9:35

15:50

High schooler

14 miles

Sagarin wrote:

As far as not even being in the game until you hit 80 mpw, that's probably also true, but that's the most I would ever advise a prep to run, having worked up to it. FWIW, I read many stories on here about preps or college athletes developing chronic mono or mystery ailments. Is it because of too many miles, not enough rest, and a crappy diet, genetics perhaps? Who knows? I think it all could factor.

I think if you do the mileage and stay healthy you'll be good, but it isn't ideal for everyone. Just look at athletes like Bernard Lagat and other 1 run a day athletes.

I think the reason singles can work for the Lagat types out there is that the endurance work is still high. If you only train once your shortest run is only going to be like 8 miles so still some good distance, but by only running once you make the quality very high.

For some doing 8-10 miles on easy days but very high quality is a lot better endurance work than doing 16+ in 2 runs at a lower quality. Depends on the individual.

Generally speaking though, where do the majority of runners(if injuries/time constraints aren't an issue) fit into as the ideal training philosophy: high mileage with doubles or moderate high quality mileage?

I guess I'm hardly the person to ask, and I realize it's a general question. Personally, unless the athlete wants to peak in high school, I don't see the point in running super high mileage or adding doubles until they can run a single eight mile run every day. Then maybe build up the long run to 12 miles.

For every high mileage Ritzenhein or Hall, there's a low mileage Kennedy or Rupp. I think I once read that former Olympian Todd Williams ran 40 mpw before soph season, 60 before junior season, and 80 before senior season. That seems about right to me, anticipating continued progression into college and, perhaps, beyond.

I don't believe in an approach that says "XX miles are the best (or the limit) for XX age."

I don't believe what worked for me would work best or WORK AT ALL for everyone. I don't advocate doing what I did for everyone ... nor do I think it is a "best way". However, When you look at a cluster of people who went through American high schools in the 60s, 70s and 80s there is a common thread.

Some people have had great success on 20 mpw or summer's without training or many other approaches.

One thing I am certain of is it is a poor idea to use people named Bob Kennedy, Galen Rupp, Ritzenhein and Todd Williams as examples of what works. Those guys would have been 9:00 2 milers off of any training. As long as they trained. Those guys were all HS prodigies and all went on to American records and national titles of many kinds, using whatever well-guided or misguided training they may have received or not IN HIGH SCHOOL doesn't give support to what training is best.

I have now inadvertently hijacked the thread and I am sorry for that, but this topic of ideal mileage has been debated ad infinitum for 60 years now, the internet has just made it easier.

The last time I saw it taken to its conclusion Malmo said something like this, "Everybody has to find their own sweet spot. There are a lot of factors that influence what that sweet spot will be. It may be 50 or 80 or 100 or 150, but there are certainly too many of you who believe that the most you can handle is 60 mpw." He was talking about Marc Davis who ran an American JR for 5k of 13:39 way back in 1989 (among other huge accomplishments) and revealed that in college he ran only some of the days of the week and many times hid from his coach and went to throw rocks into a quarry instead of going for a 1-hour run. Marc insisted that he could not have run more than 70 mpw in college without wearing out. There was A LOT more to the debate as well.

My apologies for paraphrasing a quote, but I remember the gist of it and it was just that.

I am sorry if it seemed like I was saying that anyone (particularly Sagarin and Steve) were not somehow smart or with it enough to know what common practice was. I was NOT SAYING THAT, I know that both are you are very smart people and very astute. I was just surprised is all.

One of the things that pointed the flow of information right at me was I started running young (early in sixth grade) and it was right in the sweet spot of the running boom in 78-79 when Rodgers, Shorter and Virgin (and many others) were a big deal and XC, track and road racing were a big deal ... certainly a big deal that Americans were dominating in some ways. so I got info from various coaches, PE teachers, books and magazines.

I only wanted to run or do other sports like running (swimming, skiing, cycling) and so I was a huge geek about it.