INHALERS=UNFAIR!!!!

Why do you type

so ridiculously haven't y

ou ever heard of us

ing a return key before it is lo

cated on the right side of your keyb

oard and if you learn to use i

t then your mes

sages might be easier to r

ead and comp

rehend anyway what you pos

ted is total doctorquack nonsense.

It seems you think almost of science, well at least biology, is almost entirely bullsht. Maybe I'm overgeneralizing but that is the feel I get.

If so, what sorts of principles do you use to help make decisions about how the world and human body operate. I don't mean this in a condescending matter, just curious.

J.R. wrote:

fred wrote:

Inhaling a particle triggers an inflammatory response.

The immediate treatment is to inhale a Beta agonist,

which binds to a receptor in the lungs and launches a

biochemical chain leading to vasodilation.

Doctors prescribe an inhaled corticosteroid to inhibit

the inflammatory response.

It is also possible that the inhaled corticosteroid stops

the Beta receptors from downregulating in response to too

much agonist.

This was all published 30 years ago.

...anyway what you posted is total doctorquack nonsense.

What part specifically is nonsense?

Most of what he wrote is readily observable and tested, so if you disagree with those things (B-agonist results in vasodilation, corticosteroids are capable of reducing inflammation, etc.) then we can't really have a discussion, as we'd be working with an entirely different set of "facts"

Now if you disagree that prescribing a drug is a good way of treating the problem of inflammation...then there is a discussion to be had.

Online Perscriptions wrote:

Oh, and users of inhalers should make sure they know they actual rule. Don't believe you can take several puffs before 11:59 pm the night before a race, and take some more puffs to get to 1600 mg limit before your race on the following day. It is a 24-hour limit. It is not a per day start-to-end limit.

You're nuts if you think anyone is using that much albuterol.

2/10

fred wrote:

J.R. wrote:

Why do you type

so ridiculously haven't y

ou ever heard of us

ing a return key before it is lo

cated on the right side of your keyb

oard and if you learn to use i

t then your mes

sages might be easier to r

ead and comp

rehend anyway what you pos

ted is total doctorquack nonsense.

2/10

Nope. It's NA/NA. Posts are only trolling if they are intended to get a emotional response.

JR does not believe drugs have an effect, nor that medicine is effective.

Does he live in Borneo, and believe in bad ju-ju.

Why is the WADA limit set so high then? There must be user who are using above the allowable limit. There is a limit because it does enhance performance.

No Way wrote:

Online Perscriptions wrote:

Oh, and users of inhalers should make sure they know they actual rule. Don't believe you can take several puffs before 11:59 pm the night before a race, and take some more puffs to get to 1600 mg limit before your race on the following day. It is a 24-hour limit. It is not a per day start-to-end limit.

You're nuts if you think anyone is using that much albuterol.

You could tak[quote]Why a Limit Then? wrote:

Why is the WADA limit set so high then? There must be user who are using above the allowable limit. There is a limit because it does enhance performance.

[quote]No Way wrote:

"Each 4mg and 8mg tablet of VoSpire ER® contains albuterol as 4.8 mg or 9.6 mg, respectively, of albuterol sulfate in a cellulosic material that serves as a diffusion-release membrane."

You could get a stimulant effect from this.

J.R. wrote:

Buteyko never said any such thing. You don't quite understand how this works, and should look into it more.

He says it right the Buteyko website:

"that even cancer could be caused by deep breathing."

He's got a list of 150 diseases that his breathing techniques can cure.

It's mostly non peer reviewed junk science that might work for obese mouth breathers and it had absolutely zero affect on me.

Ray wrote:

Oh I see, competing in the Winter Olympics gives you asthma.

Care to try again?

You are certainly an alert dufus

Anecdotal evidence from a number of elite athletes tells me there is an advantage. Research says no. I'm not ready to say one way or the other,

But the numbers I posted are interesting. I also agree that chlorine exposure is not good. I wouldn't equate to exposure to mustard gas. And, if it causes the incidence of asthma to rise at that rate, then concussions in football are not the biggest issue in sport safety, swimming is.

That's correct, winter olympics training in cold weather *will* cause asthma in those susceptible to it. So will training in dry air - *if you're susceptible to it* (Hicham el Guerrouj, high mountain air training). Medal winners in summer olympics have twice avg asthma rate, and gold medalists twice again. Why? Because on average they push harder and train harder.

Look, why don't you just try ventolin yourself and see if it helps you. Then you can argue your case with real data rather then "anecdotal evidence" from jealous athletes. I've tried ventolin 3 times before races and gave up. Not because there was absolutely no difference in performance: my peers who normally beat me still beat me, the ones i normally beat, i still beat by the same amount. But with Ventolin i felt like pot-of-coffee sick and jittery and hated it. I now only take it after a race if i still have trouble breathing 30-60 mins later. I do take anti-inflammatory steroids on wakeup/bedtime, but these are not broncho-dilators, in fact, one of the side affects is that it briefly makes your breathing worse and you would *never* take this before a workout. This stuff has no muscle building ability, and is the same as spreading corticosteroids on excema, rash or hemorrhoids, it just dampens immune response. The lungs, after all, are considered to be outside our body, because they are in direct contact to the air.

Asthmatics get the last laugh, literally, because of their over-amped immune system they have lower rates of cancer and may outlive you...assuming they don't die of an asthma attack.

Ideally you should have sometone give you fake ventolin and real ventolin without you knowing so you don't get placebo affect. I await your reply with earnest, seriously, it will be fun and informative for the rest of us.

LM wrote:

It seems you think almost of science, well at least biology, is almost entirely bullsht. Maybe I'm overgeneralizing but that is the feel I get.

If so, what sorts of principles do you use to help make decisions about how the world and human body operate. I don't mean this in a condescending matter, just curious.

Biolocial science is fine. Science is science.

Medical pseudoscience and BS "health science" marketing is not science, and certainly not healthy.

I use my brain and do my own thinking; what makes sense, what doesn't make sense; what works, what doesn't work.

Buteyko has been dead for 11 years, so he's not saying anything at this point. However, where does he say that breathing properly is a cure for all diseases? Here is the entire quote from the section you referenced.

Which makes complete sense to me.

I won't bother to look, because that is quite likely.

It only works when you do.

Lung Monkey wrote:

He's got a list of 150 diseases that his breathing techniques can cure.

http://breathingcenter.com/buteyko_asthma.html#a4

I looked, and didn't find any 150 diseases, however there are 80 of them listed on a different page.

List of Hyperventilation Diseases,

Reversible by Breathing Normalization

http://breathingcenter.com/diseases-list

[quote]J.R. wrote:

Which makes complete sense to me.

[quote]

That is not probitive.

His list includes curing MS, HIV, Far sightedness, cirrhosis of liver, hepatitis and more.

http://www.doctorbuteykodiscoverytrilogy.com/150-diseases-of-deep-breathing.php

If a person drops their meds to try to cure themselves of these diseases by using Buteyko, good luck!

As I've said, from practice my breathing rate is very low, blood levels of Co2 are very high, yet i had no reduction in medication, nor in asthma attack frequency.

There are also studies that show Buteyko techniques actually raise Co2 levels:

http://atomicspin.wordpress.com/2011/10/07/james-delingpole-uses-quack-medicine-to-prove-carbon-dioxide-is-harmless-er/

I admit there are a couple of real benefits from Buteyko - in the midst of an attack to resist overbreathing, breath lightly and slowly during an attack to avoid lowering Co2 levels. You can also raise Co2 levels by breathing into a paper bag, which was not, to the best of my knowledge, invented by Buteyko. The other is that breathing practice is medative and reduces stress, which in turn helps reduce asthma events. Reducing stress from breathing practice has been around for 100s of years by various religious groups, and is also not the invention of Buteyko, nor does it require shelling out $100s for a course.

i agreee completellllyyyyyyy

No Way wrote:

Online Perscriptions wrote:

Oh, and users of inhalers should make sure they know they actual rule. Don't believe you can take several puffs before 11:59 pm the night before a race, and take some more puffs to get to 1600 mg limit before your race on the following day. It is a 24-hour limit. It is not a per day start-to-end limit.

You're nuts if you think anyone is using that much albuterol.

Exactly, the doctor would have switched to a different agent if an appropriate response wasn't achieved on that much albuterol. That was my point.

The other thing is, this conversation didn't start as a discussion about taking 1600mcg. It started as a conversation about asthmatics taking 2 puffs before a race. Those 2 puffs are a total of 200mcg and no where near the limit.

You can abuse any drug, or cheat many different ways. Just because some people may be going through a whole inhaler a day isn't a reason to discount runners who have asthma and use an appropriate amount of medication to control it.