I don't believe Cain deserves to be on the list just yet. She still has to finish high school. She may not be running with her HS team and she is also a professional. But until the end of the HS competing season for Seniors is done, I think it's premature to place her anywhere on the list even with what she has accomplished thus far.
watchout wrote:
Danny K wrote:Your list is based entirely on track performances. How do you account for XC accomplishments in your criteria? For example, Baxter is 27 seconds faster than Hasay at Mt Sac in all of Hasay's attempts and 22 seconds faster at Woodward.
I'm not necessarily saying that Baxter should be ahead of Hasay but that basing everything on track times does not take into account the complete picture.
Yes, it's almost entirely based on track performances, because comparing across multiple eras is easier in track than cross country (cross country includes many different courses, different layouts on those courses, different conditions on those courses, in addition to differences in competition in the different eras).
Baxter is going to go down, and rightfully so, as the best California XC girl, and possibly the best XC girl in US History (though if Efraimson wins NXN next year, she might usurp that title). Baxter hasn't yet matched Hasay on the track, and unless she does run, say, sub-9:50 or 15:55 this year, I don't think she really has a place among the top 10 All-Time DISTANCE (meaning 800m-XC) runners in HS history.
Baxter. You 've got to kidding. Call me when Baxter wins an individual medal at world junior XC the way Fairchild did in 1991.
Under this method Alana Hadley would have 10 points (3rd - marathon, 9th -10k) with a yr and a half left in high school.
statfool wrote:
Here is a numeric ranking using the top 10 times (updated to 2013)
in events 800, 1500/mile, 3000/2mile, 5000, 10000, marathon.
10 points for fastest, 9 for next fastest, etc.
40 Mary Cain
25 Cathy Schiro
17 Cayla Hatton
16 Mary Shea
15 Jordon Hasay
14 Kim Gallagher
9 Emily Sisson
9 Kim Mortensen
9 Lynn Jennings
8 Ajee' Wilson
8 Elise Cranny
7 Aisling Cuffe
7 Caitlin Chock
7 Cassie Hintz
7 Chanelle Price
7 Christine Babcock
6 Alexa Ephraimson
6 Lesley Welch
6 Mary Decker
Missing event: cross country - using course records, I would add:
Melody Fairchild
Julia Stamps
Amber Trotter
Main source:
http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/index.php/tafn-lists?list_id=34&sex_id=W&yyear=2008
Good point.
I didn't have a list of the top 10 high school marathon times, so I only gave 10 points to Schiro.
In Charlotte For The Holidays wrote:
Under this method Alana Hadley would have 10 points (3rd - marathon, 9th -10k) with a yr and a half left in high school.
statfool wrote:Missing event: cross country - using course records, I would add:
Melody Fairchild
Julia Stamps
Amber Trotter
Main source:
http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/index.php/tafn-lists?list_id=34&sex_id=W&yyear=2008
I felt like Stamps deserved an honorable mention. She didn't have tremendously fast times on the track (compared to those on the list), but she was by far the best girl of her time and in cross was dominant.
I'd say Mortensen is a bit sketchy there for the same reasons that Chock is sketchy.
CoachB wrote:
I felt like Stamps deserved an honorable mention. She didn't have tremendously fast times on the track (compared to those on the list), but she was by far the best girl of her time and in cross was dominant.
Definitely. Julia was a remarkably strong runner, and I still believe that she could have potentially evolved into a 10k/marathon Olympian if her accident and Wall Street has sidetracked her career. Still a big fan, but at 35-years-old it may be a bit too late. I sincerely hope that she proves me wrong.
Guys: I think some of you are way to far ahead of yourself including current H.S. runners on the list, while others are pushing an agenda depending on big races. certain criteria. The marathon should not be included in any of the discussions.
I think titles won deserve a higher priority than where they stand on the high school list. The runners of the Jennings-Gallagher-Decker generation ran a different way that some of the current runners. Older coaches held runners back a bit and pointed for big races. There was not such thing as a HS championship.
Let's use Jennnigs as an example: ran a super fast mile and two mile indoors in 160 track, won Mass. XC (4x) and outdoor (4x); there was no indoor h.s. meets so she placed in the US Women's Sr. mile at 4:39. Then outdoors she ran all at home and better winning the US Jr. 1,500 and make several US Jr. teams
Kim Gallagher was the same type. Then you have missed a couple of others like
Margaret Gross, Kathy Hall and a few others.
Great in H.S. should translate to staying great after. How many fit that criteria?
Here's an improved version of my numeric list.
To address watchout's point that the 10k and marathon
are not as competitive as the other events, I reduced the
points from those to 5, 4.5, 4, ...
And I added in an XC event with 10 9 8 7 points for
Melody Fairchild, Sarah Baxter, Julia Stamps, Amber Trotter.
40 Mary Cain
16 Cathy Schiro
15 Jordan Hasay
15 Melody Fairchild
14 Kim Gallagher
12.5 Cayla Hatton
11 Mary Shea
9 Emily Sisson
9 Kim Mortensen
9 Sarah Baxter
8 Ajee' Wilson
8 Elise Cranny
8 Julia Stamps
8 Lynn Bjorklund
7 Aisling Cuffe
7 Amber Trotter
7 Caitlin Chock
7 Chanelle Price
7 Christine Babcock
6 Alexa Ephraimson
6 Mary Decker
5 Alana Hadley
5 Amy Weissenbach
5 Megan O'Reilly
It seems a little wrong to have Baxter above Ephraimson and Cranny, though. I'm impressed by her records at Woodward and Mt. SAC; perhaps Ephraimson and Cranny would do well on those courses, too.
statfool wrote:
It seems a little wrong to have Baxter above Ephraimson and Cranny, though. I'm impressed by her records at Woodward and Mt. SAC; perhaps Ephraimson and Cranny would do well on those courses, too.
I think Efraimson and Cranny could both run in the 16:30's at Woodward if pushed (and Baxter if she was pushed as well), but I am not so sure they could run 16:00 at Mt. SAC. That was a monster performance.
I think Baxter needs to run SOMETHING in track this year to make the list though. 9:55y, 15:55 for 5k... something along those lines. And it may be a moot point if Cranny and Efraimson have great years - and I think both should, with IAAF World Juniors in Eugene setting up to be a great race that I think they'll both run? I wouldn't be surprised if they were both 4:10 or better.
In fantasy football terms, there are definitely tiers with those in the tiers being about equal.
Tier 1
Mary Decker
Melody Fairchild
Mary Cain
Tier 2
None
Tier 3
about 50 girls
Racist!
Kim G is tier 1.
statfool wrote:
Here is a numeric ranking using the top 10 times (updated to 2013)
in events 800, 1500/mile, 3000/2mile, 5000, 10000, marathon.
10 points for fastest, 9 for next fastest, etc.
40 Mary Cain
25 Cathy Schiro
17 Cayla Hatton
16 Mary Shea
15 Jordon Hasay
14 Kim Gallagher
9 Emily Sisson
9 Kim Mortensen
9 Lynn Jennings
8 Ajee' Wilson
8 Elise Cranny
7 Aisling Cuffe
7 Caitlin Chock
7 Cassie Hintz
7 Chanelle Price
7 Christine Babcock
6 Alexa Ephraimson
6 Lesley Welch
6 Mary Decker
Missing event: cross country - using course records, I would add:
Melody Fairchild
Julia Stamps
Amber Trotter
Main source:
http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/index.php/tafn-lists?list_id=34&sex_id=W&yyear=2008
Couple of things:
1. Comparing events across time is woefully inaccurate for the most obvious of reasons.
2. The 800/mile/2-mile are the only events H.S. girls routinely run, therefore any other events need to be weighted. Also, most states didn't start running the 2 mile until the mid-80s.
3. Ask any athlete what it means to anchor a record setting relay and then tell them that their relay performances don't count towards their H.S. career.
Decker was not as good on the world stage as Cain was.
Haven't gone through the entire thread but Fairchild was a beast in XC. No one should be leaving her out of top 10.
> 1. Comparing events across time is woefully inaccurate for the most obvious of reasons.
It depends on the athlete's attitude.
If they want to compare themselves with the best in the past and future, they go for top times, course records, etc.
If they feel winning titles is enough for comparison against past/future athletes, they will not choose to run top times.
However, the strength of competition for winning titles varies from year to year.
Also, national titles didn't exist in track until recently, and are ignored by many athletes.
Most of these factors provide good reasons for running top times if an athlete feels they have abilities beyond their current competition.
> 2. The 800/mile/2-mile are the only events H.S. girls routinely run, therefore any other events need to be weighted.
I agree, so I made the "version 2" list above, which reduced points for the 10k and marathon.
This still leaves the 5k; maybe it should be downweighted as well.
> Also, most states didn't start running the 2 mile until the mid-80s.
Good point. Although the 3k has many top times in the 70s/80s.
Perhaps some of the California athletes with top 1500/mile times (Larrieu, Heald, Plumer) did not have the chance to get points for 3000/2mile . But I see Cory Schubert with a top 3k time in 1983.
How to combine performances from several distances is also an open question.
> 3. Ask any athlete what it means to anchor a record setting relay and then tell them that their relay performances don't count towards their H.S. career.
Relays are about the only even with team synergy, so they are of course compelling. It's hard to include in an individual ranking, because many high school distance runners don't have access to a large team with other strong relay members.
> I think Baxter needs to run SOMETHING in track this year to make the list though. 9:55y, 15:55 for 5k... something along those lines
It seems that she was ready to run a sub-10 3200 at the California state meet 2012 (and maybe also 2011), but the temperature was too high in 2012.
There is also the difficulty of handling qualifying races so many weekends in a row for athletes from Southern California.
Cooler temps and more than a week since the previous race will help a lot.
CoachB wrote:
I'd say Mortensen is a bit sketchy there for the same reasons that Chock is sketchy.
Mortensen sketchy? HSR in the deuce and won Footlocker.
After hearing everyone's reasoning, I'm revising my list to:
1) Mary Cain
2) Kim Gallagher
3) Melody Fairchild
4) Mary Shea
5) Mary Decker
6) Lynn Bjorklund
7) Kim Mortensen
8) Julie Shea
9) Polly Plumer
10) Cathy Schiro
watchout wrote:
2. Jordan Hasay
8. Mary Decker
-23987346987349687/10
> Mortensen sketchy? HSR in the deuce and won Footlocker.
Sketchy because performance enhanced due to excessive weight loss, like Chock & Trotter.
For Mortensen it did not stop her from running until college, but it was extreme.