Wang Junxia 1993 records

bumfeeler wrote:

I completely understand your point and the position of the IAAF. I just meant why do the female athletes themselves not make more of a push to sort this out. If the top athletes grouped together and pushed the issue via the media, rather than via the IAAF, surely China would at least defend it's corner.

You are on this thread demanding that elite women make a push to force the Chinese to provide videos of the 1993 National Games.

There are several issues with this:

1) Many of the current elite women are repeatedly under suspicion of drug use. Not all of them, but many of them. For instance, VCB was caught just recently with a positive test. The last thing these women would want to do is go about calling out OTHER nations for suspicious results.

2) It has been TWENTY years since the records were ratified. EVERY elite female knows that the runners who ran them were probably pumped full of various drugs. The fact that they don't appear to have done anything about it does NOT mean that they want to and haven\'t tried. It just means that either they really don't care, or have already tried and failed. Case and Point, Radcliffe is tirading on about it ENDLESSLY yet her complaints never have any real impact.

3) The Chinese can simply say that they do not have the tapes. If that statement is made, then the matter is settled immediately. They are not the ones trying to prove ANYTHING because their records have already been ratified. If they have the tapes and something suspicious went on, then they'll simply say that they don't have them. If they don\'t have the tapes, then they'll simply say that they don't have them. The elite women are not stupid. They probably know this. Why put your efforts in something that cannot succeed and will only bring you bad publicity?

This is a SEVERELY flawed analysis.

Look at the names of the Male Chinese performers in the 1993 East Asian Games:

Now Look at the names of the Male Chinese performers in the 1993 National Games:

wikipedia.org/wiki/Athletics_at_the_7th_National_Games_of_the_People's_Republic_of_China

**This Link Could not be posted under the standard format, so you're going to have to Wikipedia it yourself**

Notice that they are NOT the same. Of course the times were different. Different people are running.

Moreover, times themselves vary wildly between track meets. Just look at our US Championships last year. The men's 5000m was nearly as slow as the WOMEN\'s race. Does this means that there\'s a conspiracy going on that makes all US men faster at every other meet? Of course not. It\'s track. Sometimes we have fast races, sometimes we have slow races.

In your comparison, the 1500m, 5000m, and 10000m races are slower in the East Asian Games than in the National Games. However, other races, including the 100m, 200m, and 800m races are not.

bumfeeler wrote:

I accept it happens. In the case of Beijing it happened for dozens of runners. Note also, that in Beijing the 2nd and 3rd placed men followed the leader up by a second in each race. 3 months later... no one was in sight of those times.

"The men didn't have unusually fast times" argument holds no water. By their own standards, yes they did, and considerably so.

The short track would make less difference as the distance shortens. Suppose each lap was 10m short that would be about 5m off the 200m race. Around about .5secs difference? Adding that on to his 20.96 would give 21.46. So about 0.8s off his PB. Feasible.

Applying the same hypothetical measurements to the 800m... what would 20m difference be? Less than 3s?

I'm going to show you this:

And this:

And I'm going to request that you search the results of the 1997 and 2001 Chinese National Games on Wikipedia.

You will notice that in every case, the fastest Chinese individuals at the National Games will run faster than the fastest Chinese individuals in the East Asian Games by a significant margin.

Moreover, the National Games in 1993, 1997, and 2001 are all held in different stadiums. The 1993 games was not an "outlier case" for the men. What happened there happens EVERY FOUR YEARS. This is why the track being short is NOT a reasonable proposal. The men's performances are very consistent. They ALWAYS perform best at their National Games, and then ALWAYS perform worse at the East Asian Games held several months later.

The only exceptional instance at all in all of this was with the women in 1993. So unless the track magically managed to be short ONLY for the womens' races, it's not a reasonable conclusion that holds any water.

toro wrote:

Seeing the start and finish separately doesn't mean anything. The 1500 start could have been a prelim.

Name the TNFN correspondent. Show the reporting.

Someone ALWAYS comes up with this explanation.

1) Earlier in the thread, it has already been posted that several independent Western Photographers were present. Additionally, there was a link to a New York Times article that indicated that NYT had a reporter on site, who, in his article, also describes that there were other Western Reporters present during and after the meet.

2) This is not a matter of bribing a single company. This would require bribing multiple independent photographers, a New York Times reporter, several other reporters associated with exclusively western media outlets, the largest timing organization at the time, 10,000+ audience members, several hundred athletes, all officials present, and dozens of coaches.

Moreover, it would require that all individuals bribed at the time stay quiet about the matter for over 20 years. This is upwards of 10,000 individuals, many of them not associated with China in any way. Do you REALLY think that in the past 20 years, none of them have spoken out on the matter? Especially the western individuals who do not even have allegiance to China.

Here is a good article written just after the meet:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1993-09-14/sports/9309140145_1_wang-junxia-chinese-women-record

People will this quote form Mary Decker Slaney:

"I believe they are doing something chemically and that the results are not legal somehow," said Slaney, who once held U.S. records from 800 to 10,000 meters, set over a four-year period.

PattiSue Plumer had my view:

"Even with drugs, those are fantastic times," Plumer said. "I could ingest all the anabolics in the world, and I don't think I would run that fast.

Other articles at the time:

http://www.life.illinois.edu/whitfield/pubs/pdfs/Cordyceps.pdf

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/09/28/sports/track-and-field-amid-debate-over-chinese-what-s-women-s-limit.html

http://articles.latimes.com/1993-09-09/sports/sp-33176_1_chinese-women

They all suspect drugs.

None of these articles mentioned rigging the time or distance.

But I am having trouble finding an article from the first person's perspective as an eye witness to the events.

The are all just reporting the news that was given to them.

It's like trying to find someone to testify who received direct orders from the Godfather.

toro wrote:

But I am having trouble finding an article from the first person's perspective as an eye witness to the events.

The are all just reporting the news that was given to them.

Jeffrey K. Parker covered the '93 Games for Reuters.

What does this guy know about running?

And please help me find his writings of this event.

toro wrote:

http://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffreykparker

What does this guy know about running?

And please help me find his writings of this event.

I've never met him.

He published a story for Reuters on September 8.

BAC wrote

“The Chinese can simply say that they do not have the tapes. If that statement is made, then the matter is settled immediately.”

I really wonder what their response is because, as you say, a private request has probably been made before. It would certainly bring me some amusement to hear “We taped a Korean soap over it”

We can’t see the full field for the men’s races, can we? Ideally, we need to compare the same men’s times in other races over the same distance. Unfortunately, data is scant.

Anyway, if we are to assume that the men’s results were not outliers, would it be beyond the realms of possibility for China to think: “How can we slow the men down so not as to arouse suspicion?”

- Dictate that the men run tactically

- The A team didn’t compete

- Back-handers “you stay out the top 3 and you’ll get….”

I think this could easily be done. Especially the 3rd one.

..And on the subject of bribery. The short track idea would only require a payment to 2 old blokes with a trundle wheel, who, faced with the potential of future penalisation, would have little motivation to talk about it.

...this, of course, assuming the track was measured by independant officials. I'm yet to see any evidence it was.

NBC doesn't even show the current 10,000s on tv.

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here you fools

forget about all other crappola

easily explained .......

similar for paula's record and brits history of using bagged blood all through mens shorter distance days !

like chinese women records done similarly

epo just doesnt get up hematocrit high enough in women

perfect for training and see times produces

but need other methods like blood transfusions

to get hematocrit way up for race day .

and et voila chinese and maratahon records easily explained.

and obvious only certain nations and athletes in certain

position to used bagged blood at time .

and obviously such methods off cards nowadays due to

high hct showing up on blood passport ,

The top Kenyans have low hematocrit.

no talking about kenyans ,ya dope

but lower hct even better starting point

for more enhancement.

high hematocrit is not only way to succeed

at long distance .but sure gets world records.

These events happed 2-3 weeks after the World Championships in Germany, in which they dominated.

They took Gold in the 1500, 3000 and 10,000, plus a couple Silvers and a Bronze.

And they won by big margins.

But no one even doubled, let alone tripled.

Their winning times were far off their Beijing times and their closing splits in these slower races, while impressive, were slower then their splits in these world record races.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0IytBXo6HE

At WC's, Wang's closing 1K was quick but the last 3K couldn't compare to Beijing even though the pace was slower.

I understand that winning was all that mattered but why then set a WR in a prelim a few weeks later instead of on the world stage?

Maybe they gained confidence from that.

Maybe they went back to China and seriously reloaded on the meds.

They certainly approached the Beijing Games differently than the World Champs. Not enough time to improve fitness in between.

It's almost as if they treated the World Championships as a warm-up to the Beijing Games.

I just wanted to thank this thread for existing. Because of it, I successfully out-nerded my coach, who probably knows more about running than anyone I've ever met.

We were all on the bus to club nats the night after I read this thread and the articles that were linked to. A few people were talking about nutrition and I said "I personally swear by a diet of soft-shell turtle soup." Nobody got it until it got revisited later, when my coach said he thought it might have been a Ma's Army reference but thought it was something slightly different, like turtle extract. I got really defensive and said "NO, it was soft-shelled turtle soup and a WORM extract, I read about it this morning!" Silence.

I hope one day to have a life outside of this sport. Wait, no I don't.

That second photo makes me wonder whether the fantastic times were run by young men, no more mystery.

last 800 in about 2:02-3 (4:06-4:08 mile pace!) in that 3k world champs, for an 8:28 finish.