What are the US men missing in marathon training????

weight lifting is absolutely not a waste of time for any distance, I guarantee you the East Africans do plenty of lifting you just dont hear about it, I also think they do significantly more volume than we "hear about", I call bs on Kimetto doing 150 a week, I think its more like 170

DOLLAR BILLS ANYBODY wrote:

Case in point, as marathoners, the only difference between Teg and Craig Leon is Teg makes over $100k a year, got $50k for appearance, and had 2 private rabbits for him.

Craig makes zero money from running and I can only hope he had a couple nights hotel and a free ticket to the pasta dinner the night before.

Spot on.

When you take stuff like this into account, I think Teg's debut is a bit piss poor. Someone with his resume and resources should be aiming way higher.

Gcol wrote:

I think it's simple: US Marathon training has been lacking the specificity in training needed - it's what Canova has been preaching that last 8-10 week cycle of marathon specific work where Marathon pace long runs are key to 30-35km.

I just found a log from 2001, where I was trained by one of America's top marathoning minds (I was a 14-min guy) and my workouts consisted of 6-8 x 400m at 65 sec, 6 x 800m in 2:20, and 4-5 mile tempo runs at 5:30 pace. Looking back, this training doesn't make sense to run sub-2:18. Averaged 75-110 mi/week.

I wish I could have my prime back, where I could hammer 20 miles at 5:10/mi pace and that would consist of training.

This is from my perspective exactly right. There was no reason for a guy in 14:20 5k shape to run top 10 in the trials when I did. Again and again the US guys seem to think the marathon is some sort of crap shoot. If you prep properly the only reasons for a poor performance should be illness, extremely stupid racing or injury. Yet again and again we see guys crashing the last 5k to 10k and saying.. oh well the marathon is tough, or my fueling must have been wrong. Not to say the US runners are alone with this look at Zersenay Tadese. Still it is an epidemic here. Really the minimum standard should be a guy like Meb. Who though he never lined up a good cycle with a fast race so his PR is slow really only ran two sub par marathons in his career. NYC in '06 he had food poisoning and the olympic trials in '07 when he had a stress fracture in his hip. There is no reason not to be running 5% slower then half marathon pace at a race like chicago. None!!! Look at tags race. Tactically he ran perfect and you can see by his splits after half way he was feeling good really starting to move and then around 22 miles the wheels come off and by the last 2.2k he is running near 6min mile pace. Do you have any idea how easy 6min mile pace is for a guy like Teg. I couldn't hold his jock at my best and I can tell you it's as easy as walking. So why?? Teg was out of glycogen and likely having muscle cramping. Why were those things happening? He hadn't done nearly enough of the long specific workouts needed to really prepare for a marathon.

Why doesn't Schumacher get this? I don't know. It blows my mind. Him alberto they are amazing the work they do regularly on the 1500 to half is crazy. They have forgotten more then I'll ever know about distance training in general but look at the results in the marathon they speak for themselves. Jerry has had four sub 28 min 10k guys run the marathon and only one has run under 2:14! Most have taken multiple runs at the long race! Alberto has done a bit better. Ritz is getting closer to where he should be and Dan Browne ran 2:11 but still Rohat, who also ran one for Jerry, and others have only run mid 2 teens with sub 28 or low 28 10k and low 1:02 half creds. CRAZY!!!!!! Now they have done better with the women. Why? Simply the depth of the women's side is less so you can be further back time wise and place high combined with the fact that tend to burn a bit more fat compared to glycogen naturally make them more likely to run a good marathon with not enough specific work.

This is not to say that some individuals can't run a fast marathon without speciific work. You need only to look back at running history to find some Deek comes to mind, super consistent. Best of 2:07 but this is not the reality for most of these guys. They burn to much glycogen when running quicker. This means they need to do long work at or very close to race pace to teach their bodies to burn more fat. IE 5x5k at 15mins with 1k recovery at 3:20 for a guy like teg or ritz and the like should be a weekly occurrence in the last two months before the marathon.

Sticking up for the "B" Leve wrote:

Spot on.

When you take stuff like this into account, I think Teg's debut is a bit piss poor. Someone with his resume and resources should be aiming way higher.

I think we just need to stop expecting American track guys to be great marathoners. There are always going to be exceptions to the rule, but right now most of the dominant marathoners aren't converted 5k runners, or guys who alternate between the track and the road. They just run marathons, with shorter races on the roads leading up to them. And they enter multiple marathons a year, so if they bomb out in one they've got another shot in six months. Contrast this with Ritz and Teg, who were running in championship races on the track two months ago. That just doesn't fly with the depth of modern marathon running.

Upthread someone mentioned Craig Leon. I'd argue that the real difference between guys like Leon, Nick Arciniaga, Mike Morgan, etc. and Teg is that they are committed to roads and to the marathon. Look at their PRs-- they are 14:20ish guys. But they've been dedicated to the marathon for multiple years, which is what it takes not just to be fit enough for the distance, but to know how to race it. Look at some of the division III guys (Morgan, Pat Rizzo, Malcom Richards, etc.) who are within a couple of minutes of where Teg debuted, but can't break 29:00 for 10k. You can't realize your potential in the marathon doing it part-time.

Ryan Hall gets routinely bashed on LR because he "only does long tempos and long MP runs and not enough speedwork".

I also think it's lack of marathon-specific coaches. For several top "new" marathoners, you hear about how them and their coach are trying to learn the marathon distance, training, etc. You're trying to be world class and you want a marathon beginner or someone unproven in the distance coaching you?

There are great 5k-10k coaches here but I don't understand why athletes stay with them while the coaches try and learn the marathon. I had a great math professor in college but would I want him to teach me science if he has no experience or established success in it? No, I want to get an actual proven science teacher.

Yeah, your old coach may understand how you work or motivate you as a shorter distance runner, but get a marathon coach and keep the other around as a friend/adviser.

How about that neither Ritz nor Teg are built for the marathon. Just look at Zersennay Tadese. He's the best ever over the half marathon, but can't seem to figure out the full. I think Ritz is in this category too. Teg is too early to tell.

I would like to see Ritz pursue a sub 59 half marathon this next year.

1234567890 wrote:

I do not think genetics is a significant factor.

How can that be when most of the world's great distance runners come from just a few of the 100+ ethnic groups in East Africa?

I HAD HEArd that kalenjin's emigrated from eth to ken, and the tribe has links to bekele's. so i thought the majority of the top runners are actually from the same "stock".

us runners probably could be better at the marathon, but genetics do rule.

This why Derek Clayton was ahead of his time. He hammered his long runs and could race the same way. If he had had a bit more natural speed the record would have been even lower in his time.

Sure only because the typical american runner is a hobby jogger doing 15mpw. It gets to pretty hard to walk 120mpw when you actually have to do work alone the way.

kanny wrote:

Smartest post so far in this thread.

joho wrote:

That is absolutely incredible.

But, as a Kenyan Farmer, he probably walked more miles in a week than a typical American runner runs. Entirely different cultural, from birth and throughout life.

Show me evidence that Ryan Hall has done 19-22 mile long runs at sub 4:50 pace in training. I'm not talking about that warm up for 8-10 miles then go at sub 4:50 pace for 10-12 miles stuff.Look at Makau - 19-23 miles at sub 4:50 at 6500ft elevation - and he's saying once a week! We can speculate about what the truth of that workout really is, but I'll take it at face value."What's a typical hard training day like when you're in the middle of preparing for a marathon?Patrick: I get up at 5:30 am and first of all prepare some water bottles. Then I meet friends for training and we drive about 15 kilometers to where we train. Depending on the schedule, we choose flat or hilly courses at around 2,000 meters high altitude. Once a week we do a long run of between 30 and 38 kilometers. We do that in around 3 minutes per kilometer."

LetsRun stupidity wrote:

Ryan Hall gets routinely bashed on LR because he "only does long tempos and long MP runs and not enough speedwork".

Jobby Hogger wrote:

The infrastructure in the US is flawed for young distance runners. Too much emphasis on the amateur NCAA which burns out many athletes before they can start earning money from the sport.

A lot of athletes would benefit from taking a more long term professional approach to their running career rather than killing themselves to earn points for their college every week.

The problem is there IS very little support and financial support for post-collegiate Americans. Why keep running at a serious level, when you can get an $80,000+/yr starting salary as an engineer? Probably most have to pay off school loans too. There's a very small fraction of post-collegiate Americans still running after college, relative to the mass quantities of runners in Africa who can actually do running as a job.

kanny wrote:

Show me evidence that Ryan Hall has done 19-22 mile long runs at sub 4:50 pace in training. I'm not talking about that warm up for 8-10 miles then go at sub 4:50 pace for 10-12 miles stuff.

Look at Makau - 19-23 miles at sub 4:50 at 6500ft elevation - and he's saying once a week! We can speculate about what the truth of that workout really is, but I'll take it at face value.

You guys crack me up.

So....if we could just get more of guys to run 20 mile runs at sub 4:50 pace once a week in training, at altitude, we'd produce more 2:05 marathoners!

Yes, I think you figured it out! It's so simple!!

Incredible how much wasted effort people have put into these posts on "figuring out" the training flaws of US marathoners. Seriously?

Kimetto just started running and is an immediate 2:04 flat guy. Does anything else need to be said???

Eth and KEN combined have something like 50 sub 2:06 marathoners all time. The US has TWO sub 2:09 marathoners born in this country all time (run on a non-"aided" course). TWO!!

No special tweaking of training or training groups or anything else is gonna significantly change that enormous gulf between their marathoners and ours. And it is only getting bigger, and bigger.

It's talent, talent, talent.

^^^ THIS!

Kenya has enough good ones that some are sacrificed through training but those that survive and are in feeling good on race day (weather cooperates) are certainly goin to drop amazing times.

I think that it's all those things. If you can't see the difference in the training of east africans compared to Americans then you're just being silly. Listen to what Canova says about their training. American marathon runners don't normally do the volume nor the intensity of the east africans. Does that mean that Americans are less talented? I don't know. Until we have our runners who show the most potential for the marathon doing similar training then I guess we won't have the answer. Hall was trying to do this with Canova but that partnership ended before we had a chance to see if it could work. Listen to what Ritz and Teg said about their training and compare it to what we know about many of the best east african's training via Renato Canova. Americans do not do training that is as intense or that has as much volume normally. Americans far too often err on the side of caution. Why would Ritz train 110 miles a week? Most successful 5000-10000m runners run at least that many miles. I'm not a coach but to me that doesn't seem very smart. Long runs that aren't long enough or fast enough. This is very common in marathon training in the US. Read what Teg said about his training and it just seems dumb. The americans are figuring out how to run the 5000m and 10000m much better these days but the marathon remains a mystery. I think that we actually have the talent but we just have no clue how to train for the distance.

Not really except in some very rural areas. In Kenya, children go to the primary school of their choice (not by district or zones where they own a home), thereffore, one may pass 2 or three other primary schools while going to their choice.

He absolutely does NOT! Didn't he post last week in the log that he writes that he "hammered 6:30" pace with his brother. What? That's not hammering.

He hammered when he trained with Manhon. The closest he has come is working with Canova. Quit and even posted that he couldn't handle the work.

rojo wrote:

college runner wrote:

not mentally committed = racing smart? if ritz pulled what the africans did and try go for the win he would have run 2:14+

Guys, it's not about guts or wanting it. That's the STUPIDEST THING i've heard. If that was the case, then how come everyone on here wasn't the #1 guy on their college team and running 13:20.

The fact of the matter is Ritz was 5th. If he was in a European track race, he'd be lucky to finish 5th as would even Galen Rupp if it was a 5k.

Genetics wins.

And culture.

You can't put in what is not there in the first place.

Americans are on average too big. That's genetics. We have a culture that eschews total commitment. That's society.

We have a school culture that ignores and belittles any sport, bar the football basketball crew.

Our best bet is to kidnap orphans from war torn Africa. Put them on a treadmill and barely feed them.