HADD Base Training Plan Help

Uncle Pervy not signed in wrote:

4. Make the 5k your tempo that week and play game to see how evenly you can run it.

5. Low end of zone on easy days.

I like #4 here. One thing that made me cringe was that you planned to race a 5k every month during base. One, it would be easy to underperform in the race, since a) you are in base, and not sharp; b) you're not far enough along in base to be reaping significant mitochondria improvement; c) you are jumping from zero speed work to an all-out race... asking for injury; d) if you are pushing your mileage, you'll likely be tired and not race well; e) Lydiard, whose system HADD's system is based on, said over & over "do not race during base"; and finally f) it would be easy to second-guess your method if you suck at all three races. You may think "nah, I won't second-guess it", but believe me, you're putting in a bunch of work and you feel lousy/do worse than you raced at 20mpw, and buddies that don't normally beat you smash you... there will be a little doubt creep into the back of your mind. Don't even risk it... do it as an even tempo, and compare paces/heart rates after if you must.

There is a reason HADD didn't say: "ok, and as an indicator that the plan is working... go race a 5k every 4 weeks." "Joe" ran 1 5k, in week 14, and it was obvious it wasn't because HADD suggested it.

Check with your coach now to see if you can tempo them, or skip them.

doubles are my friend wrote:

Check with your coach now to see if you can tempo them, or skip them.

Oh yeah - if you do end up doing them as tempos instead of all-out races... do NOT go around announcing "I'm just tempoing this" or after: "I just did it as a tempo". That is obnoxious, and many that raced it hard will want to roll their eyes at what sounds like an excuse.

Execute your plan, and only share it with those that you discuss day-to-day training with.

This race is actually a fun run they do at the Safety fair in our town. I only need to run around 18-19 to win. I'll tempo it, but if the leader was right in front of me, I'll go only a little bit faster. Otherwise, It'll just be a fast tempo (6:00 pace)

Monday: Easy Day

AM: Rest

PM: 45 Min Easy @ 65-70% 140-145

Tuesday: Work Day

PM: 60 Min Easy @ 75-80% 160-165

Wednesday: Easy Day

AM: Rest

PM: 30 Min Easy @ 65-70% (140-150)

Thursday: Easy Day

PM: 30 Min @ 70-75% 155-160

Friday: Work Day

AM: Rest

PM: 60 Min Easy @ 75-80% 160-165

Saturday: Easy Day

AM: 30 Min Easy @ 65-70% (140-150)

PM: Cross Train??? (never mentioned?)

Sunday: Long Run

AM: Long Run 90 Min Easy @70-70% (145-155)

PM: Rest

Predicted total mileage: 37-40 Miles

That's complicated way os saying run 6 times per wk with 1 long run! What a crock

I'm actually following this plan this week:

Mon: 45 min @140-145 EASY DAY(PM)COMPLETE!

Tue: 3x1 mile @175-180 half mile jog between them WORK DAY(PM)

Wed: 50 min @140-145 EASY DAY (PM)

Thu: 30 min @140-150 EASY DAY (PM)Pre-Run: 5 X 100M strides

Fri: 45 min @160-165 WORK DAY (PM) Half-Marathon Effort

Sat: 20-30 min @140-145 EASY DAY (PM)

Sun: 90 min @145-155 LONG RUN (AM)

And I'm taking a down week next week, then going to 40 MPW

duder, he didn't say go run 80-100.

he said do summer of malmo because you CAN'T run that much.

then maybe in a few years if you still want to try Hadd and can run 80-100, then try.

you're like a hadd cultist!

Exactly. My only point is that a relatively small amount of low intensity running is not better than a small amount of high intensity running. In fact, it is probably worse. I agree that you are lacking aerobic strength, but running slowly for 40 mpw will likely not fix that.

There is a reason that Hadd recommends his base phase for people older than 17 or so. You need a certain ability to run reasonable paces at the lower heart rate ranges. How would you get that? By doing things like summer of malmo now. Run doubles at reasonable paces for your ability and do lots of strides and I think you might be surprised at how much better your aerobic strength will be.

The problem IS, I don't have a good aerobic base do summer of Malmo right now. Why can't I use HADD to safely go up to 50-70 MPW range (Around July-ish)

AND THEN up the intensity with the Summer of Malmo workouts (the 4-6 mile tempos, the 6x1200M repeats, doubles, with no HRM, etc.)

Whenever I did/do a tempo run, I'll start out at 6:20-6:40 pace and end up in 7:30+ Pace, feeling fatigued (other days, even miserable!) That was my problem last year and this year in track too.

The heat DID make my paces slower, but even in the cold, I still had the same problem, just faster. I did a 5 mile (4.7) tempo last year 2 weeks after track (HR: 181-ish) and averaged at 6:13 pace! BUT it was 50 degrees, dew point was in the 40s and so was the humidity. EVEN THEN, my splits were slowing, started at 6:00 pace and finished at 6:31.

That was the last April cold front, and a week later, heat/humidity came, and ALL my tempos would feel miserable, especially at the end. I would only feel good for the 1st mile, then it would go downhill after mile 2. Same with every 5K race I'd do :(

I could be wrong, but doesn't whatever heart rate you're running your runs at feel very easy? Bumping up to 50 - 70 doesn't need to take all summer when you're running at the correct intensity. Throw some doubles in now and run as much as you can handle without feeling terrible. I get that it's a step towards bigger things, but 5 miles at almost 10 minute pace doesn't seem like it would be providing much of a stimulus for you to improve.

It is early summer so as long as you get that mileage up quickly I guess I understand your plan. If I were you though I would be throwing some strides in on 4 - 5 days per week. The mechanics of running 10 minute pace is so far removed from what you'll need in August that it would be quite the shock to your system if you don't.

hey wrote:

I could be wrong, but doesn't whatever heart rate you're running your runs at feel very easy? Bumping up to 50 - 70 doesn't need to take all summer when you're running at the correct intensity. Throw some doubles in now and run as much as you can handle without feeling terrible. I get that it's a step towards bigger things, but 5 miles at almost 10 minute pace doesn't seem like it would be providing much of a stimulus for you to improve.

It is early summer so as long as you get that mileage up quickly I guess I understand your plan. If I were you though I would be throwing some strides in on 4 - 5 days per week. The mechanics of running 10 minute pace is so far removed from what you'll need in August that it would be quite the shock to your system if you don't.

Can you give me examples of strides? Like 5x100M or 4x150m with 30 sec rest? Is that what you mean?

And remember, the 9:40 pace runs will get faster as I improve, and I still do 2 runs a week @7:30-8:00 Pace (weather variations) at 160-165 HR (may go higher if too hot)

I mean, I'm already done with my this week (Still have the 90min LR tomorrow) but my legs still feel fresh today.

5 x 100 meters is what I mean. Full rest. Also, if your legs are feeling fresh, I would I increase your mileage more quickly than you have planned. The whole point of Hadd base building (as I understand it) is that you become more efficient at low heart rates because you run at them A LOT. Don't let the number in your training log intimidate you. I think sometimes Hadd's base phase gets a bad rap because people try it on 50 mpw and then claim it "doesn't work for them". Of course it wouldn't, it's a high mileage plan.

hey wrote:

5 x 100 meters is what I mean. Full rest. Also, if your legs are feeling fresh, I would I increase your mileage more quickly than you have planned. The whole point of Hadd base building (as I understand it) is that you become more efficient at low heart rates because you run at them A LOT. Don't let the number in your training log intimidate you. I think sometimes Hadd's base phase gets a bad rap because people try it on 50 mpw and then claim it "doesn't work for them". Of course it wouldn't, it's a high mileage plan.

Thank you, and yes, I'll throw them in, after the down week, I'll take it up to 40ish miles (no more than 45) and see how I feel. (2 60 min runs)

Also, as other posts said, I never ran more than 33 miles a week before (for more than 2 weeks) so even just running 50-60 and upping the intensity later on should bring upon big improvements, and huge improvements if I hit upper 60s/low 70s. (Assuming I feel ok, and don't overdo it/injure myself)

IF my legs feel fresh after my long run today, could I take a down week next week or should I still take it this week?

If your 5k PR is 18:15 and your 4.7 mile PR (even if it was on a temp day) is 6:13 pace, and you have no aerobic base then your true tempo pace is more like 7:15 pace on that 50 degree day.

If you had a great base your tempo pace would be 6:40 on the 50 degree day. On a hot day since you have no base your tempo pace is at best 7:45 pace which is not very different from the 8:15s you seem to be running on your work days.

Carry on the good work. You can do Malmo in July.

Sub16_5K wrote:

This race is actually a fun run they do at the Safety fair in our town. I only need to run around 18-19 to win. I'll tempo it, but if the leader was right in front of me, I'll go only a little bit faster. Otherwise, It'll just be a fast tempo (6:00 pace)

Sounds like you'll race it, but call it a "fast tempo". LOL. Didn't you say your PR is 18:15? (5:55 pace)

Based on this comment, and your horribly-positive-split tempo runs, I'd say you don't understand what a tempo run is.

You may also suck aerobically, but you need to figure out how to properly pace races & tempos. It doesn't matter how aerobically fit you are - if you blast out too fast the first mile, you will fade.

Every other post of yours I read, I think "obvious troll".

Well done. You got 5 pages. 9/10.

Yeah, I don't know why I did 6:13 that day, weird thing is, I caught a cold that week, then the next Monday I could barely run under 6:30 pace for tempo. It was obviously much more hot/humid that morning (6:00 AM) but I don't know why I slowed down so much...weird...I thought it was my cold, can colds slow you down? (even after it's all gone???) Maybe since it was like 2 weeks after track, I was anaerobically fit, then It just "wore off." Never knew why, I was able to run Sub 6:20 pace for those 2 weeks at 180 BPM, but after that, I just couldn't stay below 6:50 pace at that HR. DEW Point was 49* F. when I ran that. Looked it upThen it went to 72 the following week. I KNOW I slowed down.

doubles are my friend wrote:

Well done. You got 5 pages. 9/10.

Wow 9/10? I was asking a legitimate question with NO intentions to troll, and get a 9/10 without even trying? Wow I feel special :D :P I never trolled anyone before

Going out to do my 90 min long run...

and thanks...

doubles are my friend wrote:

Every other post of yours I read, I think "obvious troll".

Well done. You got 5 pages. 9/10.

Wow, I was wondering if I was the only one thinking this.

At first I thought the OP was just clueless about everything, but the more I read the more I began thinking that he knows quite a bit and is purposely saying really stupid things to get more discourse. The way he subtly goads every helpful responder in to "arguing" why what they're saying is pretty much common sense is some pretty good trolling.

And what a subject. Summer training speaks to all the HS and college dudes while HADD immediately reels in the HADD zealots. Plus the segway into SOM pulls in those folks as well as the crew of "just run" people. A little something for everyone.

To top it all off he's got a sub16 moniker when he can barely crack 19 and is running 9+ min miles! Damn fine trolling, there!

Hadd passed away a year and a half ago. At the time, I wrote out an overview of my experiences having worked with him as my coach over a number of years, to try to describe, as best I could, my understanding of his "system," in as much as it could be systematized.

There is quite a bit of misinformation on this board about Hadd's training, I think in large part because many people are familiar with his base training, which he took the time to describe in some detail, but few are aware of how he approached the more sophisticated training that necessarily follows base training.

I don't think Hadd's training approach can necessarily be summed up in a simple, straightforward summary. After all, his base training, which is arguably the most straightforward component, took a while to explain and seems poorly understood by many.

That said, I will reproduce here what I wrote in October 2011, and people ca take from it what they want. I'm not intending to answer questions or participate in the discussion, I'll just share this write-up and leave it at that.

This was written on another (Canadian) discussion board and will read a little disjoint, as the main overview got interrupted by some discussion. I'll post the main thrust of the story in a few long blocks.

Enjoy... or don't, at your preference. :-)

Those of you who have visited the Letsrun board for several years will have read some training discussions involving someone calling himself "Hadd." His real name was John Walsh, and he lived with his wife in Malta, and recently passed away of a heart attack during his regular morning run, at age 56, the same age his father died of heart disease.

I had the privilege of calling John my friend and coach since about 2002. He was a very private person, which is why his identity never became known to the web until he passed on. His nickname, "Hadd," is Maltese for "nobody," which reflects his desire in life to be considered as just some guy, nobody of importance.

From my experience working with John, and watching him guide others, I can say I think he was a brilliant coach, with a deep understanding of the scientific principles of distance running, and, more importantly, a clear understanding of the practical application of these principles in training and racing. He also had a tremendous talent for clear communication, and made ample use of brilliant metaphors in his detailed explanations.

Over the course of a few posts, I will try to elaborate what I think I learned from him. Much of this has direct relevance to the other long training thread, but I'd like to avoid the details getting buried in the multiple lines of discussion in that very interesting thread.

For today, I'll just write one initial post with some basic principles to establish general context.

John's training is deliberate and methodical, and progresses from very basic, simple easy running (at first) and progresses through to unbelievably hard training.

99.9 % of his training as about training to train, not training to race. Distance training is a long road, and reward the patient. There's nothing sexy about the long, hard road of building the basic aerobic foundation for good distance runners, just a lot of seemingly mind-numbing repetition of the basics.

Two main metaphors are sprinkled liberally about his writing: squeezing from the bottom of the toothpaste tube, and, not pulling up your potatoes to see if they've grown. The first means you start with the easier efforts and master them before moving up to harder efforts. The second means you train until you'e ready to race, without checking your fitness every week, worrying that maybe it isn't improving.

Concepts like "peaking" and periodization have less emphasis in Hadd training, at least the way I experienced it, than in other familiar systems.

The first, and most important, focus is to develop a proper aerobic foundation. He invented a novel approah for this, replying on the heart rate monitor.

More later....

Ran out of time yesterday. Before a substantive post, a few out of context "Hadd" quotes that reflect the training philosophy:

"... try and not think of hard/easy, but hard/easy/easy (and even hard/easy/easy/easy if your body says so). "

and

"Always protect what you've got before you reach for more. "

and

"... training MUST NOT BE hard (for the large percentage), ... It will become "hard" in later Phases, but that hard will be carefully controlled at all times and always be well within your current capability."

and

" role for them (coaches); holding back the good runners from doing more than is good for them."

and

"If there is one constant with just about everyone I have ever coached it is that I begin by getting them to train slower than they ever have before. Without fail."

------------------------------

On that last note, I'd like to introduce his "base training," or what he called "Phase I," which is the initial approach to developing a proper aerobic foundation for later training and racing.

This "Phase I" was originally described in a long thread on Letsrun back around 2002. The thread included a lot of back and forth over questions from readers, and has since been somehow deleted from the archives, but several people, myself included, managed to take copies of the guts of the thread, and Hadd's main essay describing "Phase I" can be found here:

www.angio.net/personal/run/hadd.pdf