Why so much Lance Armstrong hate but turn a blind eye at Bekele, Geb, etc ?

TLW wrote:

2. After the test was developed, micro dosing EPO became popular so Bekele's 2004 time can also be suspect as testing didn't understand how micro dosing could be used until later years in that decade.

Did Brahim Boulami not understand this incredibly easy method around testing procedures?

rekrunner

ooc testing in ethiopia?

blood passport 2009

GenericID wrote:

TLW wrote:

I am not getting into women's times because I am tired of discussing this as I doubt I will change any your views. I think it's best to agree we view doping and the prevalence of doping differently.

I'm happy to let you go on your merry way, you've had your arse handed to you every which way on this thread. As long as you realise that: (1) you've made absolutely no case for your allegations, and; (2) your argumentation skills are pitiful.

I wouldn't want you to think you've made a good case for your side, because the fact is that you haven't.

Bye.

In his defense it is hard arguing with morons such as you and jeff wigand. It's really kind of embarrassing reading some of the posts by you two

Wow, top argumentations skills on show again, it's almost like you two are the same person?

The mass media has directed us to do so.

I wasn't arguing.... I was pointing out a fact.

a woooo wrote:

My God you and GenericID are so childish. Your arguments are incredibly dumb as well. What TLW is pretty much nail on the head. Oh but you say if he runs 12:40.01 he is clean but, but if he runs 12:39.9 he's dirty? Seriously? It's like watching a couple of 4 year olds try to argue with an adult. It's pretty obvious that those guys doped. When you are head and shoulders above your peers in an era where everyone dopes and yet you are still crushing the competition seems pretty plausible that you are doped to the gills.

For instance if you know that Lance Armstrong was doped out of his mind yet there is John Smith absolutely blowing him away and setting records left and right wouldn't it be fair to assume that he is probably not too clean either.....

This is exactly what TLW is saying: "I think it's impossible to run under 12:40 without drugs." In a single sentence he's mapped out the physiological limits of what the human body can do and if someone runs 1 second faster then "Oh, they must be on drugs."

In the words of Sagan: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." If you think Geb, Bekele, and Komen are all on epo where's your evidence? Running faster than other runners is not evidence. Running world records isn't evidence. As others have pointed out it's not like others weren't busted in the 90s. And Bekele ran through the last decade...as well as Geb! Why weren't they busted then?

We have the evidence against Lance. For the moment there is absolutely nothing that says that Geb, Bekele, Komen, Tergat, etc. did ped other than "they ran faster than other talented runners."

1. But then you talk about insane times that can't be touched 15 years later. If 2000 is the end of the era, then Bekele "touched" these times, and set new times, after your EPO era. Your primitive statistical analysis simply falls way short of supporting what you want to say about untouchable track times from the EPO era. They are not statistical outliers, like the Chinese women.2. But this is the best you can do -- pure speculation about how it might be possible. With Lance, we had everyone from his inner circle saying "Lance did these things." Eventually Lance confessed that he was the one lying. With Geb and Bekele, all we have is remote, outside "armchair" observers explaining how it could possibly be happening in track too. "Juranimo", and many others, are treating these scenarios as equal -- "how can we hate one and not the other"? How does that even make any sense?Seriously. If EPO was so great, why did cyclists bother taking steroids, HGH, testosterone, and cortisone? I'm not completely doubting the effects of EPO, but rather accusing you, and others, of ignoring the performance enhancing and recovery effects of steroids, HGH, testosterone, etc. People speak like EPO was the only thing that mattered. And somehow the multi-PED cocktail that led to improved peloton times in the grand tours of cycling, is being transformed into the conclusion that, EPO is the only way that track times for a handful of runners in the same EPO era can be explained. Does no one else think that this is stretching the facts too far?Interesting engine analogy. Tell me what EPO does for a V12 engine.

I think you used the right words "I can only imagine...".This thread, and just about every PED thread, is full of imagining how EPO can help runners already in top shape.I have no doubt that EPO is an amazing drug, when oxygen delivery is a weakness.There are EPO studies on cyclists who generate 330W of peak power. Where are the EPO studies on cyclists generating 500W of peak power? Where are the studies on elite East Africans at the peak of their training?If a study shows a 15% increase in peak power on sea-level college amateur cyclist volunteers, there is no limit to my imagination, what that means for elite track performances.

GenericID wrote:

Yes, it is.

I agree with everything you've written, and I think you ask a valid question, but I can tell you that EPO is an amazing drug. I went from having to stop for a rest half way up a flight of stairs to being able to run again, within the space of about a week - I can only imagine what the result must be for someone who is in absolutely top shape to begin with.

GenericID wrote:

I'm happy to let you go on your merry way, you've had your arse handed to you every which way on this thread. As long as you realise that: (1) you've made absolutely no case for your allegations, and; (2) your argumentation skills are pitiful.

I wouldn't want you to think you've made a good case for your side, because the fact is that you haven't.

Bye.

Wait a second, what do you mean??

On page 1 of this thread he said:

"

TLW wrote:

Geb competed in the EPO era of endurance sports and ran times that only 1 other person in that era and 1 person since seriously approached (5k).

I think it's safe to assume Geb and Komen were on EPO. .

I mean, if that is not an iron-clad argument I don't know what is! And then he has recycled that exact argument (" they were the best runners during the era of rich white cyclists using EPO, therefore: it's obvious they doped") in many ways for the rest of thread.

How could you not be convinced of the truth of such a rigorous analysis as that?

Sub 12.40 is possible without drugs

Sub 12.30 is possible without drugs

It's a matter of efficiency, drugs don't give an athlete that. Efficiency comes from the nervous system control of movement.

Hard to take seriously the comments of someone who defends EL G, Komen, Geb, and others from that period, one in which there was no test, but who has claimed elsewhere that Coe doped.

Kim Macdonald had a close working relationship with Dieter Hogen, an East German who used to train with Beyer and Straub back in the day, and was married to Uta Pippig. Beyer was listed on Stasi documents as on a state run drug programme and we can be pretty confident most East Germans were. Hogen's wife was banned in the 90's for drug use.

So we have an East German ex athlete, almost certainly on drugs in his career, married to a convicted drug user, who then uses his talents to form a company with Macdonald to train Africans just at the time that EPO emerged on the athletics scene. Hmmm!

So you believe these superhuman athletes, who ran fast times week in week out for several seasons, are clearly clean and there is no evidence, circumstantial or not, linking them to possible drug use?

Yet another, with relative human frailty in terms of injury and illness, and who has called for life bans from when he was competing and continues to do so, now he is Vice President of the IAAF, is dirty? Makes total sense.

There is a lot of evidence pointing towards widespread use of EPO in the 90's, not least the rapid meteoric rise of athletes like Ngeny & Komen, and their equally rapid fall in their early 20's, which seemed to coincide with the introduction of an EPO test in 2000, despite the fact it was useless until a new one came into use around 2006.

I never have.

I always forget that Dieter was around then. I would ask Kennedy.

I don't and I've never stated anything to that effect.

Ngeny fractured his hip in a car accident in November 2001. For what happened to Daniel Komen:

Re Coe, I apologize profusely!

I just double checked and it was a guy called Bad Wigins, not you.

Very sorry for my mess up.

I have no doubt that EPO is an amazing drug, when oxygen delivery is a weakness

In cycling, oxygen delivery is ALWAYS a weakness. I'm not claiming any special knowledge about the effects of EPO on super-fit athletes, but you asked if it was a wonder drug,and it is.

How do you define a "wonder drug" anyway? 1% improvement perhaps? But that doesn't seem enough for a "wonder drug", does it? Yet 1% would take a 27-flat runner to a sub-26:45. A 1% improvement and Ritz has the Gold ahead of Mo. Hell, a 0.10% (one TENTH of a percentage point) improvement and Rupp beats Farah by 5 meters!

But 0.10% seems like only minimal improvement, doesn't it? Not enough for a "wonder drug" surely? So how do you define a "wonder drug"?

wtfunny wrote:

Classic example of a BS'er

TLW wrote:

You know what? You guys are right.

The passive-aggressive tact is inevitable.

Only C level runners dope.

No one in this thread said anything like that.

Kenyans don't dope because PEDs don't work on them.

No one in this thread said anything like that.

[quote[Ethiopians don't dope because they live at altitude and are friendly.

No one in this thread said anything like that.

All the guys who set world records in the 90s never used EPO because no one in Africa had the internet so they couldn't order EPO.

No one in this thread said anything like that.

Because the EPO test came out no one after the year 2000 could use it and run fast.

No one in this thread said anything like that.

Only sprinters dope!

And the field events, of course. And cyclists.

All you've done is claim that Komen, Geb and Bekele are dopers because no one has come close to (some of) their performances .. nevermind, of course, the fact that 'no one' is those 3 people. Nevermind, of course, that in the "EPO era" Geb and Komen smoked all the "dopers" - and many performances since the EPO era also smoke all the non-Geb and non-Komen times. All these as yet unnamed dopers you suggest didn't even come close to running a 5000m as quick as Gebremeskel ran last year? A guy who then only came 2nd in the OG?

Where are all the clean athletes pointing fingers at Geb, et al? Asbel Kiprop just clearly pointed at Makhloufi, so we know athletes aren't afraid to point at those they believe to be dirty. Howcome Bob Kennedy never said a single thing about Komen? They trained together. Kiptanui mentored Komen back in the 90's .. now he's talking about doping .. do you really think he'd have let that slide? Or that he'd even dare bring doping up if his own protege had been doping? That doesn't make sense at all.

If everyone was doping in the 90's like you claim, I'd be much more surprised if 2 guys could stand out so clearly from the pack; your argument would make MORE sense if you suggested all the other athletes were clean, and THAT'S the reason Geb and Komen were so dominant.

So I take this new passive-aggressive argument as tacit acknowledgement that you haven't looked over the women's top times?[/quote]

Thank you for this post. Bravo.

I don't speak of the sport, but the athlete. Elite cyclists are not weak aerobically, compared to the one who struggles to complete a flight of stairs.My real question is, why is EPO getting all the credit, when we know the cyclists were taking so many other things.By "wonder drug", I mean that everyone is over-estimating the benefit, in two ways:- Ignoring the benefits of other PEDs, (and also factors like increased sophistication of doping, and even placebo effects)- Directly translating the proven success in cycling (3 week grand tours, where recovery plays a big role) to unfounded conclusions in running. Look how many people are saying running records are only possible because of EPO.I'm sure EPO works, but maybe not as much, or the way most people think.And some athletes react negatively to EPO. What if the improvement is 0%, or negative? For small improvements (e.g. 5 seconds) it becomes possible for talented clean runners to win. This wasn't possible in cycling.

GenericID wrote:

I have no doubt that EPO is an amazing drug, when oxygen delivery is a weakness

In cycling, oxygen delivery is ALWAYS a weakness. I'm not claiming any special knowledge about the effects of EPO on super-fit athletes, but you asked if it was a wonder drug,and it is.

How do you define a "wonder drug" anyway? 1% improvement perhaps? But that doesn't seem enough for a "wonder drug", does it? Yet 1% would take a 27-flat runner to a sub-26:45. A 1% improvement and Ritz has the Gold ahead of Mo. Hell, a 0.10% (one TENTH of a percentage point) improvement and Rupp beats Farah by 5 meters!

But 0.10% seems like only minimal improvement, doesn't it? Not enough for a "wonder drug" surely? So how do you define a "wonder drug"?

There is a difference between being aerobically weak, and being limited by your oxygen delivery system (which is the sense in which I used the word "weakness").

Only very stupid people give EPO all the credit, and you've seen several of them ripped apart on this thread - don't worry about them, but don't fall into the trap of going to the other extreme.

There is a sense in which EPO is a direct PED, in a way that other substances used by cyclists and distance runners aren't, and that is perhaps why there is so much focus on it.

Once again, not "everyone", but it would be equally foolish to suppose that EPO has no effect whatsoever. Running may not be as dependent on power output as cycling, but it is dependent on that to some extent, and therefore EPO will aid a runner.

Enlighten us then?

Then you stop taking it - it's not rocket science! That being said, I've never heard of anyone in a therapeutic environment failing to get SOME improvement in their status from treatment with EPO, and I would think that failure rates are very low, given the drug's action. Perhaps you'd care to share some proof of these supposed negative reactors?

I hate to be the one to point this out, but you seem to be basing your opinion on your own personal prejudices, rather than hard science - perhaps you should come up with some actual proof?

Nicholas Kemboi -Qatar, ex Kenya.

Born in November 1983.

2000 -5000m 13.41.5.

2001 -4th World Jr XC.

1500m -3.45.0

3000m 8.08.12.

5000m 13.26.36.

2002 -7th World Jr XC.

8K 22.52.

2003 -26 Jan -1.02.16. H.Mar

1st May -43.56. 15k.

Begins training with Canova around July.

15th Aug -13.01.14. 5000m.

5th Sep - 26.30.03. 10000m.