German Account of Ryun's 3'38.2 in '67

ventolin^3 wrote:

what do you think ryun was capable of on a synthetic track, good weather & even-pacing to the bell ( you will have to decide if that pacing woud be 57 or 56 or 55... ) ?

as an aside, his coach reckoned he might have ultimately been a better 800 guy than a 1500 ( obviously meaning if he'd stayed healthy & run more 800s )

any thoughts on his 800 ?

I don't know why you are asking him, because you will just abuse him (as you have done countless times before) unless he agrees with exactly what you think.

Deanouk wrote:

Btw, I will contact you via your website in the near future, as I have some races you might be interested in.

You know Deano, I'm always very interested in any rare race footage!

It seems with my post I have made your old letsrun-friend^3 very happy! But I really can't see any runner in history who could have run this sort of race Ryun did in Düsseldorf. For sure many of the best runners from the last decades would not have allowed the race going in this direction. I really was sure they have measured his last 300m from the wrong line or something like that. But they havn't, also 34,4 is little bit too generous. But even 36,6 is almost unbelievable (to me). But Ryun did that. I'm really not a Ryun expert, so I would be interested what his other best finishing times in other races are (last 200, 400, 800).

Optimus wrote:

"I could share this with thousands of fellow running fans, potentially make more money of it than I would hording it, and just sit on it for years with no reason, but... MINE MINE MINE." - Said88 paraphrased

Money seems to be very imortant to you? Little bit surprising for such an unselfish person which you are.

Sometimes I'm really wondering which person is behind of the posting. Because the stupidity of some argumentations really is astonishing. And here letsrun really even is under the normal internet-level. The typical letsrun poster can't be much older than 16 years.

I will contact you via your web page re race footage.

Yes, re Ventolin, but he doesn't have the decency to apologise for being more than a second out with the 400 time, which he categorically said was 49.4. For me, that was more unbelievable than the 36.4.

He was wrong, like he often is, but isn't prepared to admit it.

Do you have the entire race from the start? I take it you've checked that the line they took for the 1200 split is the same as the start line? Is there a running clock on screen for the duration of the race? And have you tried timing it manually as well to check you get a similar time?

If you've done all this and are certain the time of 36.6 is correct, then it is indeed peerless as a last 300m.

Having said that, it was after a 100 of 14.2 and a previous lap of 60 flat. Ventolin goes on about it showing that Ryun could have completed a faster last 800 if the penultimate lap had been quicker, well of course it does! Anyone can see that. But he seems to forget, that if the penultimate lap had been run faster, bringing the last 800 down to 1:48, then his last 300 would have been a lot slower too. The whole balance of energy would have been completely different, and it would have been more like 38.**.

If you just look at Ryun's last 800 in that race, it isn't a stand out time. Other athletes have gone faster. It's just that all his speed came in the last 300m. If he'd gone all out at the bell, then maybe his last lap time would have been marginally faster, but he'd probably have slowed down considerably in the last 100.

If you gave some of the other miling greats the exact same split times up to 1200, and then asked them to run as fast as possible with 300 to go, and maintain it for as long as possible, I think you would find that most would be at least within 0.5 of Ryun's time.

But then all races pan out differently, and its almost impossible to compare two different performances from 2 different races.

I think I remember Morceli ran 51 something for the last lap in a 3:34, with an overall last 800 in 1:50.0. So his last lap wasn't far off Ryun's, in a race that was 4 seconds faster.

When Ovett won the World Cup in 77, his overall time was also 3:34, yet he ran the penultimate last 100 in 12.0. His last 200 was 25.1, but he seemed to take the last 100 easy. Had he gone all out to the finish, then it would probably have been more like 24.5, which is the same pace as Ryun managed (albeit over 1.5 times the distance). That would have brought his finishing time down to 3:33, almost 5 secs faster than Ryun's overall time. And what if he'd made his kick at 300 from home? Perhpas he too would have managed around 37 secs?

Bile ran a last 400 in 51 and bits in the 87 Worlds off a 1:46.9 last 800 in a 3:36 race. That's also exceptional.

Ryun's is certainly the fastest last 300 in a seious 1500m race, prooving he was one of the greatest ever. But it doesn't proove that he was capable of 1:39 or 3:24 as others claim. He was not that much better than the rest of the best in history.

If I remember correctly, Ryun's last 200 in Dusseldorf was given as 24.8 in that race; from the same source that quoted his last lap as 50.6; so it seems quite reliable. Perhaps Ventolin will be able to find a German newspaper that put it at 23!?

This thread is pathetic. Guys, this sh*t happened 46 years ago. Who f*cking cares?

Amazingly enough, some people who care about the sport, care about the history of it as well. Also, some of us were lucky enough to have seen Ryun race and feel a certain fondness for a guy who made the Olympics as a seventeen year old high school junior, and who beat the Olympic champion, with a new AR, at eighteen, and who was (and remains), by every account, an extremely decent guy.

Dennis Reynolds wrote:

This thread is pathetic. Guys, this sh*t happened 46 years ago. Who f*cking cares?

To said88: I find it difficult to understand why you won't make available a race that occurred in 1967. Why are you keeping it for yourself, when there must be several thousands of track fans - if not more - who want to view that race? What good is it doing you if you're one of the only people on the planet who can watch the tape of the race? I find your attitude incredible and incomprehensible. Hope you enjoy watching it over and over, while none of the rest of us will ever see it.

It's the same with your otherwise fantastic web site, where you won't list the seasonal results of all those great runners. Why? Why do you want to hoard all those results for yourself? What is wrong with you, man?? It's only dates and times, not the Holy Grail. Unfortunately, they can't be found anywhere else except on your site. Do you make people pay to have access to the results? You are not a true fan of track. Have fun keeping all that stuff to yourself. I hope it gives you pleasure knowing you have the details and results and will not release them to anyone else.

Wow, what a life for this guy. The fastest last 300m/400m ever and the great political career to boot. And he owns a farm:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Ryun

I wonder what Ryun would say if he read this thread. How about, "you guys need to get a life and do something productive with it."

This just in, Jim Ryun was amazing.

he says that he got it from the German tv station where it appeared. He would have signed a contract preventing him from putting it up on youtube or transferring it without permission. It's pretty incredible that they'd prevent this from being aired after all these years. Deanouk is a partisan, albeit a careful one, and would never admit that Ryun was better than his guys. Ryun did what he needed to win and get world records and that's why he only hammered part of the last lap when he was ready. 36.6 final 300m if that is real destroys any final 300 that I know if in big tactical races by probably 2 seconds or more. That indicates he could have done way under 3:30 with the right pacing and track.

Montesquieu wrote:

Amazingly enough, some people who care about the sport, care about the history of it as well. Also, some of us were lucky enough to have seen Ryun race and feel a certain fondness for a guy who made the Olympics as a seventeen year old high school junior, and who beat the Olympic champion, with a new AR, at eighteen, and who was (and remains), by every account, an extremely decent guy.[quote]Dennis Reynolds wrote:

Ryun was amazing and the history of the sport does matter. What doesn't matter is guys calling each other morons because one thinks the last lap of some random race in German 46 years ago was 51 and another thinks it was 49. See my point?

Keep It All said88 wrote:

It's the same with your otherwise fantastic web site, where you won't list the seasonal results of all those great runners.

Wow. I just can say wow!!! This really tops a lot what I already have seen in letsrun.

You're really criticising me for spending many hundreds (probably many thousands) of hours for compiling statistical data for distance running?

I invested a lot of money to do that. I pay (!!) every year some money for my website. There I have put some of my statistics (some which you will not find anywere else on this planet) free for everyone who is interested in something like this. I don't get a single Dollar (Euro) for all of this effort (I really don't like advertisement).

You are saying my site is "fantastic". But instead of saying a BIG THANKYOU to me, who made this data availible to YOU, you are criticising me for not doing more?!? That's really beyond my imagination. Again: are you an US citicen? I really get the feeling this is an american habit. (Sorry if I'm wrong in this judgement, but it seems to be true)

I'm almost speechless.

Same for the videos. I invest a lot of time, money, effort. And than people like you think I HAVE TO DO what they want!!! Unbelievable.

said88 wrote:

Optimus wrote:

"I could share this with thousands of fellow running fans, potentially make more money of it than I would hording it, and just sit on it for years with no reason, but... MINE MINE MINE." - Said88 paraphrased

Money seems to be very imortant to you? Little bit surprising for such an unselfish person which you are.

Money isn't important to me,. Its important to you because you want to sell it via your website instead of just posting it on Youtube where you could make money and other people could see it for free. It's a win - win for everybody. You're the one who cares about money.

Also I don't care about seeing the race. I replied hoping you could see the error of your ways. Your logic about not posting the video to Youtube is just stupid.

Yes, the race is complete to see, from start to finish. For sure I have at first checked the starting line. And the running clock ist to see, also not exactly the tenths (or just very unclear). So I went frame by frame. I also stopped the full race with stopwatch, and it was 3:38,2.

Now I stopped also the last 300m several times. My best estimate is something between 36,5 and 36,6. Maybe closer to 36,5. But little bit uncertainty will remain - the camera is always just from the finishing position. But I really can say it was not slower than 36,6 - DEFINITELY not slower than 36,7. I say: 36,54...

But I can't give 100m or 200m splits.

Before the race there was a 10000m race (just 4 competitors). So close to the curb the track was little bit heavily used. I don't know which effect this has had, but at least not a positive one. But probably also not a strong negative one.

To me, this race is unique and I don't think that all the other greats could have run it in THIS way. But for sure this doesn't mean some others could not have beaten Ryun on this day. We just don't know what he could have done against sub 3:30 runners. Or against a 1:46,9 last 800 in faster overall pace. And so on. Would really like to see Ovett against Ryun in this sort of race.

Optimus wrote:

said88 wrote:

Money seems to be very imortant to you? Little bit surprising for such an unselfish person which you are.

Money isn't important to me,. Its important to you because you want to sell it via your website instead of just posting it on Youtube where you could make money and other people could see it for free. It's a win - win for everybody. You're the one who cares about money.

Also I don't care about seeing the race. I replied hoping you could see the error of your ways. Your logic about not posting the video to Youtube is just stupid.

What a typical response from a product of the internet generation - give it to me and it better be free!!!

Repeat after me...he has no obligation whatsoever to placate you and the other idiots with similar demands. If you spent your own personal time hunting down stats, videos, etc. then you'd understand. I'll say once again, if it means so much to you, get off your lazy a$$ and find/purchase a copy for yourself...then YOU can put it up on Youtube.

Fwapper wrote:

Repeat after me...he has no obligation whatsoever to placate you and the other idiots with similar demands. If you spent your own personal time hunting down stats, videos, etc. then you'd understand. I'll say once again, if it means so much to you, get off your lazy a$$ and find/purchase a copy for yourself...then YOU can put it up on Youtube.

Totally agree. Entitled lefties always demanding free shit! LetsRun is full of these socialist bludgers. The man has put loads of time, effort, and money into producing a high quality product. If you wish to fully benefit from his endeavours, then you will pay the going price, or STFU.

jjjjjjjj wrote:

he says that he got it from the German tv station where it appeared. He would have signed a contract preventing him from putting it up on youtube or transferring it without permission. It's pretty incredible that they'd prevent this from being aired after all these years. Deanouk is a partisan, albeit a careful one, and would never admit that Ryun was better than his guys. Ryun did what he needed to win and get world records and that's why he only hammered part of the last lap when he was ready. 36.6 final 300m if that is real destroys any final 300 that I know if in big tactical races by probably 2 seconds or more. That indicates he could have done way under 3:30 with the right pacing and track.

Yes, I think there are too many people on here being unfair to said88.

He has put in the hours to look for it and the money to buy it, no one else has. If someone asked/told him not to put something on Youtube as a proviso for them letting him have it, then of course he isn't going to put it on there. I wouldn't either.

I don't know what the complaints are about his web site either. There are a long list of athletes who have seasonal stats available, thanks to his work. We should be thanking him for sharing this, not moaning.

You are wrong about Ryun's last 300 being 2 secs faster than any big tactical race.

Aouita is supposed to have run a last 300 in 36.1 in a 3:34 race in Italy in 1984. Haven't seen it and again I am sceptical.

Gonzales ran a faster last 400m (50.0) in winning the 87 European Cup in 87.

His last 300m was 36.7, last 200m 24.7 (faster than Ryun's corresponding 24.8) and last 100 in 12.6. So he ran that 200m stretch between 300 and 100 out in 24.1. That's comparable finishing speed to what Ryun produced. Yes it was a slower overall time of 3:45, but he must have lost 2 to 3 secs through running wide on bends and lack of drafting. It's more like a 3:42. The copy I have doesn't show the finish line with 2 laps to go, so an exact last 800 is not known (unless anyone can be bothered to look for it in AW or somewhere) but his last 700 was 1:36, which is 1:49.7 pace for 800.

While I don't think that Gonzales's run is as good as Ryun's, whose finish time was a good 4-5 secs faster overall, it does show that in the right sort of race, some amazing splits can be achieved by more than one runner. Now I wouldn't put Gonzales in the same league as Aouita, Cram or Coe in his era, yet in a single race he produced a 200m stretch of 24.1 on the last lap of a big race, a 300m of 36.7, just 0.1 slower than Ryun and a faster last lap. Now if he can manage this, surely a peak Coe, Morceli Ovett, etc, must have been capable of faster in a similar type of race?

Cacho also ran the same last lap as Ryun did, 50.5 in his Barcelona win in 3:40.1. And while this is a couple of seconds slower than Ryun's winning time, it was an Olympic final, so it came after 2 rounds. Cacho's last 300 was also within a second of Ryun's, with 37.4, and his last 200 was only 0.4 slower at 25.2. And Cacho's last 800 was 2 secs faster than Ryun's corresponding split, with 1:48.5.

If you look at Coe's European 1500 in 86, he ran every bend wide, all but the last one entirely in lane 2. That means he ran at least 1524m in 3:41.6. This is equivalent to a 3:38.1 1500 and more like a 3:37 with drafting he didn't receive for at least 400m of the race before the bell.

He actually ran the last 800 in 1:49.2, 400 in 51.0, 300 in 37.8 and 200 in 25.2. But if you calculate for not running an extra 13m over the last 2 laps, you get something approaching 1:47.4, 50.3, 37.6 & 25.0 in a 3:37.

Again, comparable to Ryun's 1:50.5, 50.5, 36.6 & 24.8 in a 3:38

Morceli ran as fast as Ryun's last lap in winning the World Champs in 3:34.2 in 1993. His last 800 was 1:49.4 ( a second faster than Ryun), 400 was 50.6, 300 was 37.8 & 200 in 25.4.

Or to put it another way, Morceli's last 800m, split into 500 and 300m sections, was 1:11.6/37.8 and Ryun's was 1:13.9/36.6. To me they are very comparable splits in terms of impressiveness, the only difference being that Morceli's overall time was 4 secs faster. If Ryun's 500m segment from 800 m had been 2 secs faster, do you really think he'd have still run 36.6 for the last 300m? Of course not. If Ryun had run it on synthetic, then their last 800m would have been pretty much the same.

So as you can see, Ryun's last 300m was not 2 seconds or more faster than any other big tactical race. There are several examples of others running within a second of that split, some with faster overall last laps and usually faster overall last 800m.

I would agree that Ryun's last 300m is the most impressive stat I've heard of in a 1500m (unless the Aouita stat of 36.14 in a 3:34 is indeed true), but there are other comparable performances where someone's last 400 or 800 or 200 or 100 have been faster or more impressive than Ryun's corresponding split in that Dusseldorf race. Why should a last 300 split be more important in assessing an athlete's standing than a last 400 or 100 or whatever else?

As for running under 3:30, I'm inclined to agree that he was capable of this, based on what said88 has seen and other stats from races Ryun has run. In fact I've always believed Ryun could have run around 3:30 on synthetic in his peak 67 form, and said88's revelation of having seen the race now strongly suggests that sub 3:30 was possible in 1967. But to use the Dusseldorf split (or indeed any of Ryun's races) as evidence he was capable of 3:24 is just plain silly.

When did I say he had an obligation? I don't understand what you guys don't understand. If you want to be condescending then I will be to.

I already said in my post, which you just replied to, that I don't care about seeing the video. Learn how to read. What does he lose by putting on Youtube? What does he gain by not doing so? What sense does it make to hoard a video?