Predict my athletes 5k based on 1 x 5k

ukathleticscoach wrote:

The recoveries are too long, you don't get 15 mins off in the race for a cup of tea!

Ha.

But as for Daniels, one of his classic workouts is 6 x mile with 1 minute or 90 seconds rest. He popularized the idea of the cruise interval with short rest as opposed to the very long rests they used to be doing. More similar to what swimmers do.

What do you guys think an athlete would need to run in repeat 1000's to be ready to go sub-15 in the 5k?

I've often thought something along the following:

5 x 1k @ 2:55-3:00 with 1.5 minutes rest

OR

6 x 1k @ 2:50-2:55 with 3 minutes rest

Interested to see what you all think.

sub 15 Q&A wrote:

What do you guys think an athlete would need to run in repeat 1000's to be ready to go sub-15 in the 5k?

I've often thought something along the following:

5 x 1k @ 2:55-3:00 with 1.5 minutes rest

OR

6 x 1k @ 2:50-2:55 with 3 minutes rest

Interested to see what you all think.

I don't think either of those workouts alone would predict a sub 15 5k. 6 x 1k @ 2:55, with 3 min rest would be a good workout for a 15 min guy, but I ran a couple of workouts very similar to that when I was younger and never broke 16. If you were also doing 5 x 1 mile @ 5:05-5:10 with less than 1 min rest or tempoing 5 miles at sub 26 comfortably and could run comfortably at 4:00 for 1500, then I'd say, yeah....15 flat.

The 2 week mini block of base training went pretty well. We did that for 2 weeks and are just now finishing up a second 2 week block with lots of low key races. He hasn't had any great results, but he did run a solid 4:50 (off of splits of 82, 71, 71, 66) then 10:12 double on our crappy dirt track. He is running a 1600 today at a low key invitational and hoping for a fast time (mid 4:30s). Next weekend, he's running a fairly competitive 3200, so he will skip out on this weeks dual meet probably.

4:39 at the low key invite. Not as fast as I was thinking, but not bad considering the hard double less than 48 hours prior.

Mellow week coming up then hopefully a fast time next saturday.

9:41 (5 second pr) for 3200, then a nice 5 mile progression on the American River Parkway run with some frosh soph teammates who had come up to watch the meet. Followed that up with a swim in the river and a team picnic. Pretty good day in my book.

Going to bump the mileage back up a bit until after or league finals meet. My guys major weakness is inability to change gears. He was second at the bell, but got blown past by 9 more guys on the last lap. He's been training hard, so his legs are probably a bit heavy. I think there are a few things we can tweak over the next two weeks to help with that shifting of gears.

9:37 at our section championship meet. Good for about 15th place. Over the last couple of weeks, I've learned something about this kid: He doesn't respond well to the traditional "peaking" schedule. He needs the volume to stay up and the intensity to stay low. This is the 3rd season in a row where, as we've begun to cut back volume, or increase intensity, his race times have dropped.

At our league finals meet 2 weeks ago, he went 4:40/10:04. He was second in the 1600 (and never really a factor), but won the 3200 in that meet (but didn't feel terribly good). The following week he went 9:49 at the divisional meet for our section, taking the last qualifying spot out of our division and the slowest overall qualifying time to our masters meet.

During cross, he performed poorly at our section meet, but we bumped up his mileage back close to it's seasonal peak prior to the state meet and he ran a huge PR. I did the same thing with him this week, with the same results. The mileage didn't get back to it's seasonal peak (60), but it was a noticeable bump from the previous week. The final 8 days looked like this

5/16 3200 in 9:49, no pop, looked dead from about 1k into the race

5/17 6 miles easy

5/18 9 miles easy-moderate

5/19 AM: 1 mile wu. 2400m @ 80 pace, 1600m @ 79 pace, 2 x 600 @ 72 pace. 1 mile cd. PM 4 miles easy

M: 5 miles easy

T: 4 mile warm up + 4 x 800 tempo (2:50, 2:47, 2:46,2:45) 30 sec recovery. 1 mile CD

W: 6 miles easy

Th: 3 easy + 4 x 200 @ 32 (full recovery) 1 mile cd.

F: 9:37, looked great.

Probably would have been a low 9:36, high 9:35 but he made a bonehead move with 200 to go, trying to pass a runner on the inside, getting tangled, and almost falling. He had been gaining pretty rapidly on a small pack ahead of him when he got tangled, but was unable to catch any of those guys after the tangle.

Good Summer. Mileage went

5

45

50

50

25 (traveling)

55

62

70 (camp, 7000' elevation)

70

50 (began practicing in afternoon 95+ temps)

63

Did easy reps 1 time per week and some controlled tempo type stuff 1 time per week.

Ran a pre-season time trial on a 98 degree afternoon in 10:10 in road flats split 5:06,5:04

Last week went like this

8/19 AM 4, PM I cancelled practice due to 106 degree temps, played dodge ball in gym + lift

8/20 AM 4, PM 7 + core

8/21 AM 4, PM 1.5 wu, 4 x 1 mile tempo, 1 min rest 5:33, 5:30, 5:33, 5:38 1.5 cd 98-99 degrees

8/22, 5 easy + Core

8/23, AM 4 easy, PM 3 easy + Ultimate frisbee + lift

8/24 AM 8.5 with last 5 @ 28 minutes.

8/25 Easy 6

8/26 AM 4 , PM 2 mile wu. 6 x 250 uphill and crest, 2 mcd, lift.

Tomorrow, easy 5

8/28 second time trial. Weather should be low 90's. Looking for sub 10 in flats again. First race follows TT#2 by one week.

Going to a biggish meet in Golden Gate Park on 9/14. Should enjoy cool temps and fresh air.

updates on the season thus far. Team and your number 1.

l l;; l wrote:

updates on the season thus far. Team and your number 1.

Boy was 1st place in the D4 race, 7th fastest time of the day overall in the SJS (198 high schools represented).

The course was running very slow yesterday and times were more in line with past years, rather than last year's ultra fast results. Nobody can quite figure out why times were so fast last year and not this year. It was very dry and dusty yesterday and one of my boys had an asthma attack. The only thing that I can think of is that the bad breathing conditions coupled with looser, footing made the times slow.

My boy ran 16:15, which translates out to about a 15:45-15:50 at Woodward park. Our boys team finished 3rd place, just one spot away from a state meet berth.

We didn't have very many girls on the squad this year, but the two that qualified for the section finals ran their best races of the season, finishing 32nd and 34th.

My 5k predictor workout was 5x1000m with 60sec passive rest (I used marathon shoes on this workout), the 5000m race afterwards went very close to this pace.

keep the updates coming

you're in SJS btw? so were we, D3 though. what high school is your team, if you dont mind me asking?

reed wrote:

keep the updates coming

you're in SJS btw? so were we, D3 though. what high school is your team, if you dont mind me asking?

I don't mind. We are D4, Hughson High

What colleges in your #1 looking into seeing how his times are rather competitive.

A few smaller colleges have been sending him letters. The asst. coach from the local CSU has been out to one of our meets. Nobody is beating down his door.

This week was very, very good for training.

After the meet on Sat 11/16

11/17: 2 mile shake out

11/18: 8 miles easy + weights, still sore

11/19: 2.5 wu, 4x1mile cruise interval (5:10, 5:10, 5:12, 5:07) on a cross country loop. 1 mile cd

11/20 AM 4 easy. PM 8 medium in a driving rain

11/21 AM 4 easy. PM 2 mile wu, 4x200 w/30 sec recovery @ 31-32 + 4 x 400 @ 66-68 w/50 second recovery + 4 x 200 w/30 sec recovery @31-32.

11/22: 9.5 easy in the rolling hills, about 6:40 pace average

11/23: AM 5 miles, including winning a turkey in the local turkey trot....gobble gobble. PM 5 easy

Tomorrow should be 4-6 miles very easy.

I had him put in a block of high volume because I've come to the realization over the past year and a half that he responds very well to big miles. We will cut back to about 40 miles this week (including the race on saturday). The workouts on tap will probably be 3-4 x 1k at goal pace with lots of rest and 4-5 x 400 at 66ish with lots of rest also.

The goal is to go top 10 at state and get on the podium. I just looked at the southern section results and am a little intimidated by some of the up front times. The one thing that might wreck my runner is if Caleb Webb takes it out hard and my guy tries to go with him.

Coach B, your runner avg. approx 3:15 for his workout. Did you predetermine pace ?

Coach B, I have not read entire posts, after looking at some of your training you've shared I believe your athlete will not run his best at end of season. I do not know how you taper for

big meets, but I think some of your paces are too fast. You might be leaving his best races in his workouts.

ukathleticscoach wrote:

'I am surprised that you all think that 3 min is long rest.'

You are living in the past, sessions like 4 x 1 mile with 90 second recovery are more what you need

'Daniels more or less advocates a 1:1 work:relief ratio,'

Do you really think elite runners are following this Daniels stuff. Have you ever hear Canova mention this crock?! Used to do your session well under 3 but was only running 16 for 5km. (I was struggling to crack 60 for 400m as well so it will be even further out for someone fast)

That was over 20 yrs ago and we didn't know any better. The recoveries are too long, you don't get 15 mins off in the race for a cup of tea!

Smart coach.

Coach B, can I ask what your athletes mile p.r. is? What is goal for 3mi,/5000? I did see your comments on peaking and you mentioned his lack of pop or another gear at end of races. I think you have endurance type athlete. He might respond better to 6/8 goal pace 400's w/4to5min recovery and some strides before big competition. I am not saying I know for sure, but if you are the type of coach that likes shorter faster over real tempos and lt's for bulk of training for 3200/5000m you might be unwittingly going through peaking and valley's, it would be hit and miss at best. If your runner lacks 800/1600 speed, which appears to be the case, he needs to be pacing fine tuned. If he is feeling good around 2mi/3000 then he can squeeze down pace and go for it. By the way your care and passion for the success of runner/runners is admirable.