Sweet Stinkflesh wrote:
Sprintgeezer wrote:I think it incumbent upon the IAAF, or some national federation, to either require or strongly recommend that sponsored/paid athletes do exhibition runs at different distances.
Right, just to "settle" Internet message-board arguments, Reese Hoffa should have to run a 10,000 in spikes and Asbel Kiprop should have to pole-vault a few times. Brilliant.
I would pay good money to see this. Especially if Hoffa was paced by an ice cream van.
Sprintgeezer wrote:
End of my commentary.
And yet you're back for more.
FOS, as usual.
End of my commentary on that substantive issue.
Reese Hoffa being paced by an ice cream van is an entirely different matter, however.
That is the funniest image I have had in my head all week, LOL
Ok so... wrote:
2012xxx wrote:Obviously Rudisha with a 45.5 400m could go sub-11 and probably sub-10.5.
Rudisha sub-10.5?!!!!! Best line of the thread. Pure genius.
I never thought I'd see the equal of :
Bernard Lagat and Mo Farah could
in the delusional stakes, but you have put daylight between you and that one my friend.
Bravo.
That one was so bad it almost hid the other rubbish like:
Think about it - pretty much anyone you know that has run sub-48 has also run sub-11. Hell, I know a few 49 and 50 guys who can run sub-11.
That makes as much sense as me saying I'd be quicker than 1.41.73 over 800m because my 400m PB is faster than Coe's. We're different athletes, I'm a sprinter, he's a middle distance runner. Just because we're the same level at an intermediate distance doesn't mean we would be at the ends of the spectrum.
Speaking of Coe, no idea where you got 46.1 400m PB from. He has a best recorded time of 46.87s for a FAT, out of blocks 400m.
He did have a 45.5 relay leg. But hand-time, flying start, approximate distance relay splits are not equivalent to FAT, out of blocks, exact distance times, so can't be compared. These aren't like 4x1600m splits where it doesn't matter if you're a second or so out. 1s over 400m is a lot.
So Coe ran 46.8, that is 23.4 per 200 and 11.7 per 100. Now he averages 11.7 per 100 over 400, but you have trouble believing he would break 11 if just sprinting one 100m? How much respect for the endurance of MD/LD runners do you have? You think their sprinting pace doesn't slow down at all when distance increases from 100 to 400. You're wrong - their endurance is better than sprinters, but they're not superheroes and they too see some slow-down in pace as the distance increases albeit less than sprinters. So if anyone can run 46, they most certainly can break 11, unless they have an absolutely horrible start (something that can be remedied with a little work on it). As far as Rudish, 45.5 is WC and any WC 400 runner can run 10.5 or better again barring a horrible start.
Ok so... wrote:
So if you're a (middle) distance runner and you can run mid-47 you'd automatically be able to run 11.00? You serious?? There'd be very few if any elite 800 guys that could run 11.00. Rudisha maybe. Struggle to think of anyone else.
Sprinters on the other hand. Yes if you're a sprinter and 47 mid to low, you should be able to go 11.00 or very close to it. But they're not elite distance runners and never will be, so aren't relevant to the discussion.
I've known two sub-elite (1.48) 800m guys who've actually run some properly timed sprint races. One could go 47.6 for the 400m and managed to do a 22.6? 200m, the other was 48.x and was 11.72 for 100m.
I'd be very happy for someone to actually provide some evidence of an elite distance guy ever running a properly timed 100m out of blocks and coming close to 11.00. But there's been none whatsoever.
In the absence of any evidence to the contrary it's safe to say there's not a single elite 1500m+ runner that could do it and no more than a handful of elite 800m runners. I'd bet my (and Lance Armstrong's) right testicle on that.
OK, fair enough. I pulled that mid-47 / 11-flat correlation out of my ass. But this entire debate is going to be this way, don't you agree? We simply don't have the times to back up our guesses.
Here is a sub-elite to go against your two guys, except his times are verifiable, yours are in your memory - Curtis Beach.
10.78, 46.90, 1:47.75, 2:23.63 for 1000 meters. Is he an elite middle distance runner? No, but 1:47.75 is NCAA national class so he is still very good and I think this is the fastest middle distance runner we will find who has confirmed sprint times.
So for this data point of one, 10.78 = 46.90 so maybe my guess that 11 flat equals 47-mid is not far off.
Twenty Seven Year Olds wrote:
Sweet Stinkflesh wrote:Right, just to "settle" Internet message-board arguments, Reese Hoffa should have to run a 10,000 in spikes and Asbel Kiprop should have to pole-vault a few times. Brilliant.
I would pay good money to see this. Especially if Hoffa was paced by an ice cream van.
I'm pretty surprised events like this don't happen. I have to think it would be a pretty big marketing draw and fun for everyone.
Particularly the "at what distance category"...i.e. let's say matching Bolt v Farah in a 600m race. You could easily bill that as a crazy marquee match-up and generate alot of hype and I personally think many people would enjoy, and pay to, watch that sort of thing.
As you said, just good all around fun for everyone.
paper bag math for sub 11 in a standard 100m race.
Let's say the distance guy and the sprint guy both get to 30 meters in 4.00 seconds. (see chart in link below)
To record 11.00 distance guy needs to cover the remaining 70m in 7 seconds that is 1.0 sec per 10m about 10 flat pace for a flying 100..
On average the sprintguys go ~0.85 for those 10 m increments.
If you think the 0.85 to 1.0 ratio is possible you just have to figute out how to get your distance guy out of the blocks and to 30m with-in a couple of hundreds of Assafa
http://speedendurance.com/2008/08/22/usain-bolt-100m-10-meter-splits-and-speed-endurance/
Dumb idea. Why would any elite athlete risk injury in such a ludicrous display?
Sprintgeezer wrote:
Sweet Stinkflesh wrote:Right, just to "settle" Internet message-board arguments, Reese Hoffa should have to run a 10,000 in spikes and Asbel Kiprop should have to pole-vault a few times. Brilliant.
It's not just to settle message-board arguments.
Like I said, it is all about entertainment. We all want to see the best do what they do best, but it is also entertaining to see them do something else, as well, at which they aren't so good.
Hence, Dancing with the Stars, etc.
We could have the best of both worlds, if done right.
And I gave 2 specific examples, that are realistic. Hoffa walking a 10k in spikes in a couple of hours and Kiprop trying to hoist a pole are, clearly, not realistic as entertainment events.
Well, Kiprop trying to lift a pole would be pretty funny, come to think of it.
As far as the field guys go, I would love to see some SP's try HJ, or PV using a telephone pole.
It's all about entertaining people in the stands.
Distance guys doing a 100m would be great anywhere, any time.
100m guys doing a 1500m--the dynamic would be great to watch. Guys going out hard and then slowing to just about a walk, the finishing sprint...
If the Deca 1500 is endurable, an elite 100m 1500 would be downright enjoyable.
LM wrote:
Twenty Seven Year Olds wrote:I would pay good money to see this. Especially if Hoffa was paced by an ice cream van.
I'm pretty surprised events like this don't happen. I have to think it would be a pretty big marketing draw and fun for everyone.
Particularly the "at what distance category"...i.e. let's say matching Bolt v Farah in a 600m race. You could easily bill that as a crazy marquee match-up and generate alot of hype and I personally think many people would enjoy, and pay to, watch that sort of thing.
As you said, just good all around fun for everyone.
I'd give both testicles for a series of races bolt v. Rudisha at 400/450/500/550. 2-all when it's all over.
Avg person with 50/50 population split slow twitch/fast twitch going 100% with only basic mile training should be able to run under 12 seconds.
With lifting and sprint training virtually everyone except for the most slowest of LSD distance runners should be able to go 11 (for men) and 13 for women. Its not hard
Complete garbage
Not my real name wrote:
Dumb idea. Why would any elite athlete risk injury in such a ludicrous display?
Sprintgeezer wrote:It's not just to settle message-board arguments.
Like I said, it is all about entertainment. We all want to see the best do what they do best, but it is also entertaining to see them do something else, as well, at which they aren't so good.
Hence, Dancing with the Stars, etc.
We could have the best of both worlds, if done right.
And I gave 2 specific examples, that are realistic. Hoffa walking a 10k in spikes in a couple of hours and Kiprop trying to hoist a pole are, clearly, not realistic as entertainment events.
Well, Kiprop trying to lift a pole would be pretty funny, come to think of it.
As far as the field guys go, I would love to see some SP's try HJ, or PV using a telephone pole.
It's all about entertaining people in the stands.
Distance guys doing a 100m would be great anywhere, any time.
100m guys doing a 1500m--the dynamic would be great to watch. Guys going out hard and then slowing to just about a walk, the finishing sprint...
If the Deca 1500 is endurable, an elite 100m 1500 would be downright enjoyable.
Why?
$$$
To get some idea of how appealing this type of thing is, consider the level of interest generated by MJ's recent cross-sport attempt at sailing.
Speaking of MJ, the match race with Bailey was completely botched. Too bad.
I know a short, thin 2:39 marathoner (he ran that at 40 years old) who ran 21.xx 200m in college. So, why is it so hard to believe that guys like Aouita or, say, Ryun or top guys now could do that?
El G ran 25.0 for his last 200m en route to his victory in the 2004 5000m final. That is 12.5 seconds per 100m, AND after 12 laps of running.
In an open 100m and a running start, I'd bet he could run 11 flat or faster. Didn't Rupp go 10.9 with a 2 step start?
I personally saw Joe Falcon run between 22.0 and 22.8 over 4 x 200 on the SMSU university track (now Missouri State) in 1990 before he went to Europe and won the dream mile. It was a jogged into start. So yes, it's definitely possible- I've seen it!!!!
Depends on the relay race. Yes, for most legs with a good change over and rolling start, you need to add about 0.7 to get an equivalent open time for 400. Coe's fastest split was 45.5, worth around 46.0 - 46.2. But in the match v USA at Crystal Palace in June 81, he ran a leg in 45.6, where he took the baton 2m up, stumbled, practically hobbled through the start/finish line and by this time was about 5m down on the US athlete. He then receives no drafting, runs slightly wide to get past in the home straight, before easing down 20m from the finish. This is on YouTube, and clearly represents the equivalent of a sub 46.0 open. He also had a FAT of 11.01 in a spring meet for 100m on cinders. And a pb of 21.6 for 200m, which is the last in a set of 6 200m sessions with short recoveries. Yes, this is hand timed, but represents sub 22 ability for 200m. I can't check at moment, but i seem to recall he went through 300 in 33. During his 46.8 open.
Overall, there is enough evidence there to convince me that he could have run a sub 11 for an open 100 from blocks in 81. And that was the year he broke the mile WR and won the British 3000m title indoors.
As for Rudisha, he is clearly capable of 45 flat for 400, although his change of pace is not as good as Coe's, and as he is so tall, I don't think he'd be much faster, if at all, than Coe over 100m from blocks.
400, Yes, co I certainly don't think Rudisha could run 10.5 even with some practise using blocks. I'd put him and Coe around 10.8 for 100m.
jjjjjj wrote:
I know a short, thin 2:39 marathoner (he ran that at 40 years old) who ran 21.xx 200m in college. So, why is it so hard to believe that guys like Aouita or, say, Ryun or top guys now could do that?
Was he ever an elite distance runner? No? Well, there'syour answer.
Ridge Runner Sports wrote:
I personally saw Joe Falcon run between 22.0 and 22.8 over 4 x 200 on the SMSU university track (now Missouri State) in 1990 before he went to Europe and won the dream mile . It was a jogged into start. So yes, it's definitely possible- I've seen it!!!!
It was jogged into the start. So he didn't run even close to 22.00 FAT then.
This is what all you distance runners find sohard to understand, the difference between hand timed rolling start times and FAT times in spirnts is night and day.
deanouk wrote:
Depends on the relay race. Yes, for most legs with a good change over and rolling start, you need to add about 0.7 to get an equivalent open time for 400. Coe's fastest split was 45.5, worth around 46.0 - 46.2. But in the match v USA at Crystal Palace in June 81, he ran a leg in 45.6, where he took the baton 2m up, stumbled, practically hobbled through the start/finish line and by this time was about 5m down on the US athlete. He then receives no drafting, runs slightly wide to get past in the home straight, before easing down 20m from the finish. This is on YouTube, and clearly represents the equivalent of a sub 46.0 open. He also had a FAT of 11.01 in a spring meet for 100m on cinders. And a pb of 21.6 for 200m, which is the last in a set of 6 200m sessions with short recoveries. Yes, this is hand timed, but represents sub 22 ability for 200m. I can't check at moment, but i seem to recall he went through 300 in 33. During his 46.8 open.
Overall, there is enough evidence there to convince me that he could have run a sub 11 for an open 100 from blocks in 81. And that was the year he broke the mile WR and won the British 3000m title indoors.
As for Rudisha, he is clearly capable of 45 flat for 400, although his change of pace is not as good as Coe's, and as he is so tall, I don't think he'd be much faster, if at all, than Coe over 100m from blocks.
400, Yes, co I certainly don't think Rudisha could run 10.5 even with some practise using blocks. I'd put him and Coe around 10.8 for 100m.
Where did you get the 11.01 FAT 100m from??
And you really expect anyone to believe a guy with coe's 800m ability will only run 46.87 after going through 300m in 33??
World champion class distance runners are the best all around runners. Let's think about the top 10 sprinters from IAAF annual list and see if any one of them could perform equally in a range of race distances from the 100m to the marathon as the top 10 marathoners. We could use 11.0 100M as base, which is equal to a 846 in the IAAF scoring tables. I've listed equivalent times in the other races. Who would do the best overall.... a sprinter or distance runner?
Time Sprinter Distance runner
11.00 yes maybe
22.29 yes maybe
49.77 yes probably
1:55.3 maybe YES
4:16.1 NO YES
14:48:15 NO YES
31:19:36 NO YES
2:29:04 NO YES
I think it far more likely that a marathoner might do the 11 FAT than a sprinter running the 2:29.