http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoGAd-Bhf8M
His start was absolutely terrible and he still went through in 21 high cruising the back straight.
His start was absolutely terrible and he still went through in 21 high cruising the back straight.
Yet he caught the winner by 200m. It was poor pace distribution. By your same logic he should have won convincingly considering he was winning at 200m. And I agree he doesn't have the power of the sprinters, the block technique but thats why he is the best in the world. He still runs 44.xx and 21.00 in spite of that. With sprint training he is a 43.xx, 20 low man and the trade off is the sacrifice of power for that endurance required to run the 800m world record. His 400m time cannot be run off 21.5, ask any world class coach, sport scientist.
Sometimes i get the opinion that distance types feel as though their own dreams are being crushed when they are forced to acknowledge that fact that you cant just run 100miles per week and be good. You actually have to have talent/speed.
"Not on IAAF website= not legal/validated and dismissed."
So you concede Marcin has run 10.61FAT
He was anything but cruising. Do you not see how high his turnover is? And he fell apart the last 100m just like everyone else. He wasn't gaining on the first place person AT ALL.
That shows two things:
1) He ran the first 200 VERY fast for his abilities, because of his 800m stamina his best part is supposed to be the last 100m of this race but it was NOT
2) Around 21.9, 22 even for the first 200. Like I figured, his best time in the 200 is going to be around 21.7.
The 100m time is what this thread is all about. Not the 200. We figure out his 100m time then we can extrapolate to figure out his 200m time. And with a start like that there's no way in hell he's breaking 11 seconds.
Michael Johnson ran the first 100 of his WR in 11.05. Rudisha was obviously trying to get out fast in the start, what with all that pushing in the blocks to generate power.
Have you watched the footage yet lol. He was winning with 50 to go! He got run down.
Okay so basically where I agree is that the first 200m was too fast for him [He is in base however]. Where I disagree though is the fact that if he is only running 21.70 for the 200m his lactate level will be higher than the last 200m of an 800m. Now if this is the case he should have finished in around 25+ seconds giving him a much slower time. The fact that he held on for a 45.5 means that the first 200m wasn't over 97% of his max speed. From here we can easily extrapolate that he is 21.3 minimum block start or not.
Btw he went through in 33 which is not dependant on endurance and favours a 200m guy over a 400m guy. Look up any online calculator and type in 33 and see what figures it gives your for your 100m time... Hell do it with the 400m aswell just for fun.
Direct from Charlie Francis Sprint Handbook.
"Go through your 200m at 1sec or at best 0.8sec slower than your current best time for a one-off 200m race. That will allow a drop-off from the first 200m to the second 200m in the race of just under 2sec for a well conditioned 400m runner. For a bumped-up 200m sprinter just having a crack over 400m it can blow to 3.5sec"
Now Rudisha went thorough the 1st 200m in 21.9 and 23.9. It fits in quite nicely with Charlie Francis' estimations pegging his at 20.9-21.1 [I would go for the latter]
Direct from Clyde Harts training notes.
"A good formula for predicting the potential 400 meter time for 200 meter runners, providing they are willing to train and to give all they can to become a top 400 meter runner, would be to double the time of their best open 200 meters then add 3.5 seconds to this"
Rudisha is clearly well conditioned, and this provides Rudisha with a 20.75 off his 45.5 form but factoring in the start and poor power he is once again around 21-21.2.
Once again, these percentages mean absolutely nothing to David Rudisha. Maybe to a Lashawn Merritt, a Kirani James etc... but Rudisha is an 800m specialist.
Even if we were to do what Charlie Francis suggest then we would get
45.5-3.5=42 divide by 2= 21
Since we are working backwards here, add in his terrible START and his difficulty overcoming inertia (accelerating to top speed) and we come up with a time greater than 21.5
BTW... I hope you realize Charlie Francis is talking about the projected time for a 200M SPECIALIST... not an 800m guy. What everyone in this board is doing is taking his 400m time and using that to base his 200 and 100m time. You CANNOT do this as he is NOT a 400m runner. He is not a sprinter.
You must always keep in mind that being an 800m runner distorts these percentages and what we will see any lower than 400m is a huge drop off in potential due to the start being more critical.
He's talking about the 400m event. It doesnt matter if your a 100m runner or a marathon runner. The formula is based on the energy requirements of the specific event. A marathon runner wont have a better differential than a perfectly conditioned 400m runner over the 400m race. This is the point.
Essentially all the bad start indicates is that he would be even faster if he fixed it, and also explains why he will be quite handy in a 4x400m relay team if Kenya are in range of a medal.
There's so much to respond to, I don't even know where to begin.
I will re-iterate some basic things:
800m runners have no significant ability to block-start and drive. Period.
800m time is not, I repeat NOT proportional to 100m time from the blocks performed by 100m sprinters, in fact there is a good argument to be made that it is inversely proportional
100m speed envelope is not at all approximated by 800m speed envelope
discussions of Coe's alleged performances is of no avail, especially the timing of his relay leg which was dismantled on another thread; estimated timing, flying start, and he is not Coe
Lewandowski is not Rudisha; even if his time is accurate, once again, just because someone is faster than someone in the 800m does not mean that they will be faster than them in the block-start 100m.
Rudisha is ALL ABOUT speed endurance, at 800m speed--which is NOTHING compared to 100m speed. He is beautiful to watch in the 800m, but is no 100m sprinter.
Like others have said, he goes 11.00 from the blocks, if he is lucky.
Whomever said he goes 6.78 in the 60m is on SERIOUS crack! THAT is just awesome.
You guys can't come to grips with the fact that your calculators are fictional, you don't have corresponding elite-level 800m and block-start 100m times to use to validate your models.
I can't say often enough that THE 100M SPRINT IS NOT A RUN, IT IS A HIGH-POWER ANAEROBIC EVENT. THOSE WHO ARE GOOD AT SPRINTING ARE CORRESPONDINGLY CRAP AT RUNNING, AND VICE-VERSA.
Although I can't do it anymore, 11.00 is crap by good sprinting standards. Rudisha would be extremely lucky to do that from the blocks. I believe that if he trained he could get it, at the obvious expense of his 800m time.
I just cannot believe that nobody can understand this. I DO believe that someone like Coe could go 11.0-11.2 from the blocks while in good 800m fitness. Furthermore, I believe that Coe could go around 10.7 with not too much 100m training. BUT COE IS NOT RUDISHA.
Furthermore, just because some guys like Gay and Bolt, who are amazing 100m guys, can run a very fast 400m in around 45, does not mean that they run the 400 the same way that they run the 100. They excel at the 400 because of good speed endurance, while they excel at the 100 because of good speed endurance AND good drive/transition AND good speed envelope. They do not use the last 2 in the 400m. They are SE-type 100m guys running 400m. You just cannot take a 400m time for an 800m SE guy like Rudisha and try to predict a 100m time!
The only relevant thing from a 400m is the 400m SE being somewhat predictive of the 100m speed envelope, for guys who are 400m runners--for an 800m runner, their 400m time is not predictive of block start ability, drive phase ability, transition phases ability, absolute maximum speed ability, absolute maximum speed endurance ability--it is only possibly somewhat predictive of sub-absolute-maximum-speed--like at 85-90%--endurance, which doesn't even factor into a 100m race unless you are completely untrained.
And if you ARE completely untrained, you have no business whatsoever talking about running 11.00 or faster unless you are a natural sprinter, which Rudisha is not, otherwise he would be doing a shorter distance--if not the 100, then the 400.
The one I love most is the 6.78 60m time...make it stop, I'm so sore from laughing...!!!!!!!!!!
Anybody else have guesses at his 60m time?
6.78!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO
Where's that other thread?
"Fix his start"?
He CANNOT "fix" his start--his start is the way it is because he is INCAPABLE of a decent block start.
As someone else said, he would be much better off starting while not using blocks, maybe from a 3-point stance or something. I am absolutely serious.
And finally, someone else (body master, I think), gets it--Rudisha is a damn 800m runner, NOT a 200m long-sprinter, and certainly not a 100m short sprinter. He is ABSOLUTELY OPTIMIZED TO RUN THE 800M IN WORLD RECORD TIME.
There is absolutely ZERO chance that he would break 11.00 from the blocks. ABSOLUTELY ZERO. Read the other thread, I think that might have been a decent discussion.
But I'm more interested in your guys' estimates of his 60m time, which I asked for early on in this thread.
Come on, we have an initial bid of 6.78 Surely someone can do better than that!
11.00 is slow. Its slow for sprinters and its slow for 800m runners. Heck its slow for female sprinters. 11.00 gets routinely broken by 14yr olds. Rudisha has run 45.5. He is a 400m runner, much faster than 800/1500m seb coe, yet you think coe breaks 11 and Rudisha doesnt. If coes max v was higher he would have run 1:38. Go home get an education then you can speak....
Sprintweezer wrote:
11.00 is slow. Its slow for sprinters and its slow for 800m runners. Heck its slow for female sprinters. 11.00 gets routinely broken by 14yr olds. Rudisha has run 45.5. He is a 400m runner, much faster than 800/1500m seb coe, yet you think coe breaks 11 and Rudisha doesnt. If coes max v was higher he would have run 1:38. Go home get an education then you can speak....
Wow. Sprint Geezer we have someone who once again validates his assumptions on Rudisha's speed by comparing 800m times of 1:41 and Coe's old WR.
THAT DOES NOT WORK! How many times do we have to explain this? Let me put it this way: Just because one runner is faster.... even statistically much faster in a longer event like the 800m, does not mean that they will also be faster over a shorter distance. Too many variables come into play then just saying "they are faster".
You're like the "fans" of the sport who are watching a 5k and see someone demolish the competition and respond with "he is just faster then all of them". As if his 100m time is leaps and bounds better and that is what is giving him such a big cushion on the competition.
AS FAR AS THE 60M TIME SPRINTGEEZER.... i saw it as well!!! I was literally rolling on the floor laughing as I remember how hard it was for myself to run 6.7 in the 60m! Not to mention Wallace Spearmon regularly runs that time!!
If i had to take a crack at his 60m time... knowing that he won't reach top speed until 75 meters.... i would say he runs around 7.50 seconds.
Most 60m to 100m conversions are multiplied by 1.54. With his start, i'll give him a conversion of 1.52 and we have an 11.40 as his 100m time.
deanouk wrote:
There isn't a 1.0 sec difference when converting relay 400 to open 400m. If that were the case then that means the fastest ever 400 leg (42.9 by Johnson) is only worth 43.9 in an open, and would also suggest that no one else has ever bettered 44 secs in a relay. At the most it's 0.7.
Obviously, it varies a great deal. Sometimes it's worth a full second, sometimes .5 or less.
Generally speaking, 1)Distance runners will run significantly faster on relay legs relative to their "out-of-the-blocks" PRs than will sprinters, because distance runners are so much worse at accelerating from zero to sprinting speed due to much poorer lower and upper body strength.
2) Runners who pass the starting line for their relay legs near full sprinting speed will will run significantly faster on relay legs relative to their "out-of-the-blocks" PRs.
Deano--you do make a good case for Coe's 45.7 and other sub-46 relay legs as indicative that he could run those times out of the blocks, but there are unknowns, of course, such as how much the drafting in the 45.7 helped him, what his reaction time to the gun would be, etc.
Funny Ive posted irrefutable proof and you have had no answer other than personal assumptions. No documentation just guess work. The one thing that you dont need to guess is a 45.5 400m. We know the 400m is a sprint, we know it is out of blocks and we obviously know that every race is a percentage of ones max speed. Science has proven the energy contributions over the 400m. So with phenominal endurance Rudisha can run a 400m at 94% of his max 200m speed. No one will be better than that figure whether that peak jeremy wariner or mo farah. So that being said Rudisha will be 21.4 at his slowest during base, and 11.00 at his slowest. During comp, and as he stands right now he runs between 10.8 to 10.9 every day of the week.
One thing you have to realise is that the 800m is an extension of speed. Without sub 11 capabilities you wont run a 1:41.xx. Essentially with your logic one can sprint an entire 400m virtually flat out. And lets face it, that makes you look pretty silly.
Out of interest what is your knowledge if the 800m? Have you coached it? I only ask because I have been coaching 800m for quite a while and I get a mix of 400/800 and 800/1500 types. We usually do a 100 400 a week or two out from big 800 races for our 4/8 types. The 100m is usially just as a warm up for the 400m. Despite no block practice our 800m guys with a sub 47sec quarter usually run around 11.2 with the occasional 10.9 and these guys are in highschool. It would be pretty ignorant of me to think that Rudisha couldnt break 11 when my juniirs with significantly slower quarters occasionally can.
UkCoach800 wrote:
Out of interest what is your knowledge if the 800m? Have you coached it? I only ask because I have been coaching 800m for quite a while and I get a mix of 400/800 and 800/1500 types. We usually do a 100 400 a week or two out from big 800 races for our 4/8 types. The 100m is usially just as a warm up for the 400m. Despite no block practice our 800m guys with a sub 47sec quarter usually run around 11.2 with the occasional 10.9 and these guys are in highschool. It would be pretty ignorant of me to think that Rudisha couldnt break 11 when my juniirs with significantly slower quarters occasionally can.
You're absolutely full of crap. So you're basically telling me that your 800m runners have the potential to make the 100m finals in a High School states meet?
That's what 10.9 usually gets you in High school, a trip to the finals. Usually won by someone running like 10.7
I pretty much guarantee that those are hand timed. But I believe in their validity. Really! I do!
I was running 10.4 in Middle school on concrete! And my sister ran a 10.98 one meet in High school in the 100m! Obviously hand timed but that should only be 0.24 added right?? So she runs a 11.2. But guess what? Her best time was only 11.8 FAT!
Moron