What Are the Ethiopians Doing that Allows 12:37/26:39 Races?

Mahatma wrote:

"If you dreamed up escaping poverty from an early age, and the best way to do that was to become a great runner, your motivation would be a little bit greater than someone who can get a 50k job slamming away on a keyboard."

[snip]

Why don't they all just choose distance running? And what about India? That wrestched place of 1 billion people would certianly produce a few distance runners on the "escape poverty" plan.

Now if we posit that these few tribal Kenyans have some reason to suppose distance running would be the easiest route to financial well-being for them owing to, say, proven ability to dominate at it in large numbers, then it may make sense.

I think that poverty "plus" ethopian/kenyan obession with distance running is infered. I would also add that running takes no equipment.

On a realted note Indian's tend to see slamming away on a keybored as there escape from poverty plan, and are slamming US developers much in the same way africans are slamming US distance runners.

Did you seriously run 31 miles like this in one run?

Where did you see video footage of Geb doing this?

Bump

Another factor about India: most of the country is really pretty freaking hot. Ethiopia and Kenya are at altitude, and have relatively temperate climates.

Much of India is at sea level, and incredibly hot for 9 months out of the year. Running in New Delhi is like running in Phoenix AZ in the middle of the summer.

Plus, many of the cities have insane pollution. I was in Kolkata this winter, and I tried to go for a run. You get lots of funny looks, and you end up choking on smog in 10 minutes.

****

Some Questions:

1. Is there an example of a US runner who has trained correctly, and injury-free, for 10 years, starting around 16? Since it's pretty clear that Haile is older than the Ethiopian govt claims, I'm guessing that he was already about 25-26 (and not - what - 23-24?) when he won in '96. Probably something similar is true for KennyB...

2. BK was doing amazing stuff, and was set to really do something great in the 10K until some idiot plowed into his car a couple of months before the trials. He spent 2 years recovering from that. But he showed that he could break 13 for a 5K, and probably would have broken 27 for the 10K in 2000 (though here I'm guessing, but he sounded pretty damn confident of himself before the car crash - and so one assumes that he was poised to do something like break 27...)

So why haven't scores of other US runners tried to reproduce his methods?

3. Are Meb and Alan as fast as Haile and KennyB for 400m? If not, are they doing anything about this (along the lines of Trackhead's link to the Lydiard Need for Speed article).

4. Meb's 10K Pr is almost a minute faster than Bill Rodger's 10K PR (though Bill's 10K time is probably soft - still, one doubts that BillR would/could have run a 27:12 under any conditions). How come Meb slows down so much at the marathon? Meb should run at least a 4:52 pace marathon, I claim. Certainly not a 5:02 pace marathon (though that wasn't under the best conditions!). In any case, his marathon PR should be better than Bill. Why isn't it?

My answer to this last question is that Meb (along with many of our other fine US marathoners) has great VO2max, great speed, but only very good aerobic conditioning. Haile and KennyB slow down very little as the distance increases - they beat Horwill's 4sec/lap rule (i.e., they slow down LESS). Meb (and every other great US runner today) seems to slow down more than 4sec/lap when you double the distance.

BillR slowed down only about 2 sec/lap, according to his 10K PR (this is what makes me certain that his 10K PR was soft).

My point: If EPO does anything, it would be to have you slow down less for longer distances (i.e., only slow down 2sec/lap, not 4).

Well, Haile and Tergat and Bekele seem to slow down about 3.5 sec/lap. Just like Shorter and BillR and Salazar did (here I assume that BillR would have run 27:30 in the right conditions). This, BTW, is a pretty good argument for the fact that maybe Haile and KennyB AREN'T on drugs - if they are, the EPO's not any more effective than BillR's training was.

But Meb (and Alan and Dan Browne) slow down more. And most US marathoners slow down WAYYY more. Why?

Seems to me that even our best guys haven't figured out how to develop their aerobic efficiency to the level of the Shorters and BillRs and Salazars...

So these previous questions lead to my final question:

1) If 100 US runners developed their speed more, AND

2) they developed their aerobic conditioning as well as US runners from the 70s (who did as GOOD a job of this as Kenyans and Ethiopians do today),

...would we see 10 US runners under 13 and under 27?

This seems to me to be what BK did, essentially.

A good example of exactly why the nation isn't as competitive. Sorry to dredge this sorry subject back up, but the reason that less-advanced, less-powerful countries can kick our asses in a) running and b) tech jobs is because they CARE so damn much about it.

We might have obsessive runners, maybe some obsessive coaches, but we don't have an entire culture that supports runners. As Douglas Adams said, people consumed with a burning desire to do a thing are always going to triumph over people who aren't.

I'd like not to start up a debate about this. But I think that the reason that Ethiopia and Kenya are great is not so much because they have genetic advantages, or even artificial ones, but just that they try so hard to find paths to success that they're bound to succeed.

If all of America wanted to run like they did, AND wanted it as BADLY as they do, we'd see a lot better results.

personally i think its because ethopians dont sit on computers and wonder why other countries are so fast....instead they just go run and get fast....huh? good answer...and yes im guilty of sitting on computers and pondering this too

Take That! wrote:

Now if we posit that these few tribal Kenyans have some reason to suppose distance running would be the easiest route to financial well-being for them owing to, say, proven ability to dominate at it in large numbers, then it may make sense.

On a realted note Indian's tend to see slamming away on a keybored as there escape from poverty plan, and are slamming US developers much in the same way africans are slamming US distance runners.[/quote]

Actually, if you worked in software development, you would be aware of how bad most Indian programmers are. They also have what is termed - by Indians no less - as "perfection blindness". An inability to see any of their own mistakes, or even aknowledge them. Keeps us Yanks busy doing a lot of debugging among other things, despite what the press, the bought and paid for press, tells you. However, companies still figure that at 6 to 1 pricing in India, or 2 or 3 to 1 in the US, they'll put up with it. Take a look at Google, you'll find a wealth of info on this - and the astounding lack of creativity and inventiveness from the Indians, although they are natural braggarts. Even WIRED magazine had to comment on the lack of creativity and originality. Scary. Even worse, more and more jobs in other fields are being outsourced, all kinds of work, so expect a major economic collapse in the US down the line.

As far as running goes, the Africans have a higher number of talented individuals. And surely, in some cases, coaches are also able to experiment much more freely with drug regimens, with the full blessing of corrupt governments. It's that simple.

if only Indian programmers could learn to make foolish generalizations and be as arrogant as you, I'm sure they'd learn to spot their coding errors and fess up to them, and be more creative, and...

perhaps you could train, sahib?

(...you know, I sat here at the computer, asking myself if I wanted to get into this one. I'm a moron for doing so...)

High end programming will need highly skilled workers, few supplied-availiable workers, high demand, high wages. Easy programming goes to the best bidder. India has the first inning going, Columbia is now at bad and hitting at least .400 More and more countries will join in. High end, mid, easy programming will develop- is already present and will continue to grow as such with corresponding wages.

As for Ethiopians and drills, I would assume the drills keep them sharp and are not all that difficult or taxing on their main trainings?

What would be very valuable to see or know is:

What is their running like/ training when they are tired (or not sharp) how off are they when their running is off. Are they way off on the long runs, sprints, intervals, racing etc. The ladies were quite inconsistant last year on the circuit. The men always look sharp to me and just sharpen more on the big meets.

What combination of workouts can allow them to increase their training capacity and remain sharp and most importantly keep improving throughout the season and throughout their careers? Shorter training cycles repeated often perhaps?

Shorter base building, shorter specifics, racing period, repeat shorter base build yet, more specifics, racing, repeat.... If you are young the basic foundation is longer, the mature athletes do more specific workouts. That could be one way to remain sharp but could risk burnout also.

stupid injun programmer # 2046 wrote:

(...you know, I sat here at the computer, asking myself if I wanted to get into this one. I'm a moron for doing so...)

I'm also a programmer, I could help you, but then you and three of your buddies would take my job. The H1B Indians get kicked out of their jobs after 5 years, and get replaced with new H1B guys or see their job go overseas, sometimes to India! It's a real mess.

The Ethiopians and Kenyans and Moroccans are all miles ahead of everywhere else on earth when it comes to finding and developing talent. When a talented kid decides to give the sport a real go in the US or Europe, it's almost by accident. Most kids do other things, or never try running in the first place. All that crap about running to school, growing up barefoot, is crap. The altitude plays a part, etc., but not as much as people claim, same with all the genetic speak. The E. Africans and N. Africans might have more individuals with talent, but they also have a lot of people trying to make it. Not so in Europe or the US. The track is the way for these guys to make something of themselves. Few, if any, areas of the West have ever "needed" track in that fashion.

I think miles upon miles of drills are quite effective. If you run 10,000 miles and nearly every mile is run just like the last it will not be likely that you will be in the zone, the moment, or more scientifically correct the alpha brain wave state, because it can get tedious and boring. If you aren't into that run, and find you are generally thinking of other daily matters or even your next run or race instead of tuning into your body and it's environment then you shouldn't expect to reach your potential. It may very well be that these types of drills aren't always for improving efficiency so much as they are used to stay in the moment, which will then also improve efficiency as one becomes ever more aware of their nervous system and how it effects propulsion.

Going back to the alpha brain wave state...Is it not logical to think that a society that has a slower pace of life would not produce children who had spent greater amounts of time in the alpha wave state by the time we see them on the racing scene? Combine the proper learning environment with a child and you'll get incredible results. This as opposed to the beta wave stereotypically scatter brained Western society, like the USA that is moving at ever accelerating speeds and squirms as a whole when things are quiet and still. I would not expect brains brought up in a general ambiance of the beta wave to have better command of the body than a brain brought up in a sea of alpha wave thinking.

I find this to be a powerful way of thinking. Yes, the Ethiopians only have superior tools because the minds that molded them have more depth of field in relation to the body. Is it so tough to believe that the greatest men in a technologically inferior society might just have a mind capable of greater vision of oneself than the greatest men in the US who were brought up in a society where attention was fought for and generally won by external stimuli? It's in my best interest to believe that, because I can always activate more areas of my mind which will open the door to greater control of my systems, resulting in greater efficiency and power transmitting capabilities.

In case anybody is interested here is a link to some interesting brain wave info. I'd like to think several of my posts over the past couple years were made while I was in the theta state, and that's why they didn't really connect with many people.

So, can you explain the Ethiopian drill you were talking about?

I tried it yesterday and I have no idea if I did it correctly?

Where did you see footage of Gebrselassie doing this?

trackhead wrote:

What one runner can run with drugs, another can run without.

Not quite true with the women's records. The records from 100 - 800 meters are probably all drug-assisted and no one's come close to them.

The definitive answer to your question:

1. Anthropological advantage. Just as the prototypical Eskimo is short and thick to hold in heat, the prototypical Ethiopian/Kenyan is short (good leg turnover) and slim (lighter and less work to move). Years of raising families in an area with high infant mortality ensures only the strongest survive. This would include those with a genetic predisposition to survive at altitude (high red blood cell production) if the families are being raised at altitude.

2. EnThe definitive answer to your question:

1. Anthropological advantage. Just as the prototypical Eskimo is short and thick to hold in heat, the prototypical Ethiopian/Kenyan is short (good leg turnover) and slim (lighter and less work to move). Years of raising families in an area with high infant mortality ensures only the strongest survive. This would include those with a genetic predisposition to survive at altitude (high red blood cell production) if the families are being raised at altitude.

2. Environmental factors. The silver lining of living in a third world country for runners is the unpaved road. Miles of dirt trails produce years of un-interrupted, injury free training. Obviously, these are people who have spent years at high altitude.

3. Social factors. America idolizes football and basketball players. Can Michael Vick go out to eat without being mobbed? What kind of financial deal did LeBron James get from Addidas? $80,000,000.00? These people are the Idols of American sports. Geb, KennyB and Tergat are the idols of the sports world in Kenya/Ethiopia. The enclosed link goes to an article for a Kenyan who came to the US. He did not like running at first, but it is what is stressed in those countries. Want to be famous in Kenya? Strap on a pair of Nikes and get to work.

4. Financial Factors. The average annual income in Kenya is about $650.00. That?s it. In the US it is about $35,000.00. If you get a $25,000.00 deal from Nike, that is the same in Kenya as getting about $1,750,000.00. That is a significant motivator for many in such a poor country. If you think money does not motivate, look at the Kenyans who have changed citizenship for cash; hell, they even changed their names. Money is not motivation for all, but is for lots of folks.

5. Early Development. Kids in Kenya and Ethiopia play soccer or run. That is about it. No competition from the X-Box, the Internet, etc. Most of the kids run to school. Gebs strange left arm carriage is from holding books in that hand when running to school. Something like 10K every day. How many American 8 year olds can run 10K?

6. Government Support. Look at the Police, Prison Guard "teams." Do you think Ndereba has ever put on a prison guard uniform? Yet she gets financial assistance from the government. Reasonably so. International accomplishments in running give these two countries a great deal of national pride.

7. Diet. Whole grain food is a staple. Foods in the bush are prepared fresh and nutritious. No processed foods, much less McDonalds, Snickers Bars or Diet Cokes.

8. Training camps. Organized groups working together. Hanson's does this in the US, but it is still not the same. Imagine Brown, Meb, Culpepper, Ritz, Kennedy as well as other developing athletes living together and pushing and encouraging each other every day. Want to push yourself to make more money, move to a nicer neighborhood; want to run faster, train with people who are faster.

That?s my $.02.

Ok another thought. The Ethiopians grow up to run long distance and are brought up with few other sports or distances. At a young age they don't get given the choice of sprinting, instead they all focus on running long distances. Perhaps if in the western world we were not brought up among sprinters and people from other sports, then our distance runners would improve?

Or if the moderately talented sprinters would realize that their potential is much greater at longer races. For instance, why did the kids at my high school go out for the sprint events when they could only manage a 54 for 400 meters?

"Or if the moderately talented sprinters would realize that their potential is much greater at longer races. For instance, why did the kids at my high school go out for the sprint events when they could only manage a 54 for 400 meters?"

Too much pride.

This is a good thread.

To those who say drugs, let me make one point. How many people are doig drugs? Hundreds? Thousands? But there are not hundreds of people who are the fastest. There are only a couple. For a second, lets assume that everyone does drugs (even though I believe that KennyB, Geb, et al are clean). We should still look at the fastest runners lifestyles and training to see what sets them apart from from the other runners. Or is my logic flawed