Phillip Hersh Demeaning Ryan Hall

Criticizing Hall's career is unwarranted. He's done great things. But saying he wasn't his normal self in Chicago, like Greg Meyer even said, is valid. It'd be ignorant to lie and sugarcoat, just to turn a blind eye.

Here is Phil Hersh's response to the people criticizing him: comes off, once again, as a major d-bag

Covering the marathon is an assignment, not a privilege, even though I have chosen to do it since 1977.

With that out of the way, I will respond to why I feel Ryan Hall’s 2:08 doesn’t mean much to me.

For most of the past 30 years, being the best US men's (and, to some extent, women's) marathoner has been like winning Miss Congeniality in the old beauty contests.

Deena Kastor, and Meb Keflezighi and Joan Benoit are the big exceptions - they made big podiums.

(And props to Steve Spence, 1991 world bronze , and Mark Plaatjes, 1993 world champ)

After 93, though, just Meb and Deena on podium in worlds or Olympics.

Three US men's Oly mara medals since WWII: Meb in 04 (silver), Shorter in 72 (gold) and 76 (silver)

Chi-NY-Bos: one US male winner since 83 -- Meb at NYC in 09.

I thought Hall’s Boston race this year was a turning point, because he was with the lead and pushing the pace at 20 miles and more. I gave him credit for that.

But it clearly wasn't a turning point.

And everyone talks of a resurgence in US men's marathoning, but Hall's time in Chi (his Boston time doesn't count because the course doesn't meet record parameters) ranks only 34th in the world this year, with 30 other men (two did it twice) having run faster. And he ran 2:08:04 on a day good enough for the winner to set a course record and the runner-up to break his personal best by 2+ minutes.

US marathoners merit minimal -- or no -- respect in a global context. If one of them surprises at the 2012 Olympics, as Meb did in 04, he will get the deserved kudos.

For now, Ryan Hall is an excellent also-ran.

Thanks for writing.

Best,

PH

Barking Spider wrote:

I wish he'd post here under his real name instead of as "ttc."

May I call you B.S. for short? Did your parents actually name you "Barking"?

I was not aware that "everyone talks of a resurgence in US men's marathoning." I don't know anyone who does, nor should they. Other than Hall, with the possible exception of Meb (and we have no idea what shape he's actually in), no American man could break 2:11 right now. I think we all realize that. That having been said, Hall injects himself into contention in all of his major marathons now. Yeah, he's no Moses Mosop, but he's no slouch, and he does have an impact.

Wait everyone, wait. We have new rules to live by.

It no longer matters what our own personal goals are, or why we actually run ..... unless we are really slow. But if we run fast enough and dedicated enough to be considered world class then our own goals and motivations no longer matter, we will now be held to some arbitrary standard of what Phillip Hersh and Hardest Nipples (if they are not one and the same) think our goals and motivation should be, and we will be judged by them and talked down to an disrespected by them if we don't live up to THEIR standards of what we should do with our talents.

All hail the great Phil Hersh/Hardest Nipples, new supreme rulers of our motivations and goals.

Phil/HN - get over yourselves.

The Answer My Friend wrote:

...Other than Hall, with the possible exception of Meb (and we have no idea what shape he's actually in), no American man could break 2:11 right now. I think we all realize that...

Actually, Rupp could break 2:11 right now while stopping along the way to share a cup of tea.

Clearly a lot of us don't like Hersh. The easiest way to separate yourself from the man's work is not to read his work on the Chicago Trib website and unfollow him on Twitter.

My motivation is mine wrote:

Wait everyone, wait. We have new rules to live by.

It no longer matters what our own personal goals are, or why we actually run ..... unless we are really slow. But if we run fast enough and dedicated enough to be considered world class then our own goals and motivations no longer matter, we will now be held to some arbitrary standard of what Phillip Hersh and Hardest Nipples (if they are not one and the same) think our goals and motivation should be, and we will be judged by them and talked down to an disrespected by them if we don't live up to THEIR standards of what we should do with our talents.

All hail the great Phil Hersh/Hardest Nipples, new supreme rulers of our motivations and goals.

Phil/HN - get over yourselves.

Nope it's the same old rules. Sorry but this is plain dumb. Phil isn't deciding who gets Oly medals and Major Marathon wins. Time and Place is. Hall hasn't lived up. PERIOD.

Furthermore Phil and the rest of the world doesn't care what your personal motivation is. Its a results world, kid. If you want to frame your "participant" certificate and proudly wear your "finishing is winning" T-shirts don't expect everyone else to be impressed with you.

Nope it's the same old rules. Sorry but this is plain dumb. Phil isn't deciding who gets Oly medals and Major Marathon wins. Time and Place is. Hall hasn't lived up. PERIOD.

Furthermore Phil and the rest of the world doesn't care what your personal motivation is. Its a results world, kid. If you want to frame your "participant" certificate and proudly wear your "finishing is winning" T-shirts don't expect everyone else to be impressed with you.

If Hall is just a very fast "also ran" than treat him as such. There is no need to make a point about how he isn't as good as the other guys. There are some 30,000 people who weren't as good as Mosop on Sunday. Hersh doesn't write about them, or make snide remarks in the press conference. He is trying to make a point with Hall and he is being a huge douche in doing it.

Greg Meyer saying it doesn't mean shit. Not being his normal self, maybe true, but running poorly, I don't think so.

He just didn't have a great day, a day that ironically Greg himself would love to have had. Greg didn't face this kinda competition when he won Chicago, not even close. He's a fairly nice guy as I've met him many, many times, but not being "his normal self". Give me a break. He ran a tad over 2:08 in decent conditions, but definitely not perfect. Off you go.

Tyler that was a well written, a rarity on this site. But please get out of your fairy tale world of everybody should support everybody just because we share the same desire. There is a huge difference between them and us. They get media exposure, endoresments, and prize money. We don't. Any person in the publics eye that is a professional is expected to perform at their best when it counts. If you don't, get you get criticized. That's the way it is, and running is no exception. If Hall can't handle the pressure or the critics then I suggest he take up another profession. Otherwise quit making excuses for him and welcome to reality.

I am Chas Webb

The competitive running community is in the unfortunate position of having very few writers contribute to major news outlets on a regular basis, especially writers who have any name recognition. Chicago hosts a major marathon and their local paper is kind enough to keep a guy on the beat. And, good or bad, we all seem to be following what he has to say.

Complaints would be best addressed to the Tribune.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/chi-contactus,0,3927045.htmlstory

Perhaps somebody with name recognition in the sport can write a letter to their editor and try to get it published. Anyone? Wejo, have some free time today?

As a runner, I find Hersh's expectations and understanding of the sport to be irrational. Each marathon is difficult and a unique challenge. So many factors come into play over that long of a distance/duration pushing at that level. Hall's ability to keep this consistent for so many marathons is amazing. How many runners can do that and be running as the fastest American-born male marathoner? Just one. And he's it.

Mosop doesn't seem to be taking much crap, even though he finished almost 3 minutes slower than his Boston time. Hall finished maybe 4 minutes slower. How is what he did in Chicago that different? We're talking a matter of a few seconds per mile over 26.2 miles. The impact on finish time is noteworthy, but anyone who gives a marathoner crap for having variable race times just doesn't seem to understand how the event works. We see strategic track races all the time, yet anyone who runs less than a PR finishing 2nd or beyond is a disappointment to Hersh, as if every race has to be on-paper faster to matter.

I'll probably believe years from now that Hall was one of the great American marathoners. I likely will not believe Hersh was one of the great American sports journalists. These sorts of comparisons are relevant. It's true that Hall did state the goal of winning a major, so we have some journalistic responsibility to hold him accountable to his progress there. But what about Hersh not competing for that Pulitzer? Do we let him off the hook just because he isn't in a position to be as ambitious as Ryan or because he keeps mum about it? Hall is the best in his country and one of the best in the world at what he does; not many people can claim this for anything they do. So ask him tough questions, but don't act like he'd underachieving when you (Hersh and critics) cannot comprehend the level at which he's performing.

No - you are from the Dan Rather era of media bias and support it.

Meyer (and I) said Hall wasn't himself, which you said "may be true". No one said "running poorly" except you.

Hersh Dershp wrote:

If Hall is just a very fast "also ran" than treat him as such. There is no need to make a point about how he isn't as good as the other guys. There are some 30,000 people who weren't as good as Mosop on Sunday. Hersh doesn't write about them, or make snide remarks in the press conference. He is trying to make a point with Hall and he is being a huge douche in doing it.

Hey genus - Hersh is an American running journalist, writing for an American paper in an American city, reporting on an American runner in a premier American Marathon.

But you're right, he should just ignore Hall and focus on that way ballin' pregnant lady.

This is the first time I've heard this. The general impression I heard indirectly is most pros think letsrun.com is too harsh on them.

A lot of them don't distinguish between letsrun.com editorially and the message board but I've heard the Gouchers think the same way so please pass on the info.

Personally, I have been impressed with Kara this year coming back from pregnancy and have said as much and made one comment on the site saying as much.

I won't get into a debate on the depth of running on the men's side versus the women's side. However I will address a few points.

I disagree that Kara does not lay it on the line. Winning is harder on the men's side but Kara clearly runs to win. Kara got a bronze on the track in Osaka which was the US first track medal in ages.

Kara after running her fastest marathon in Boston this spring after the birth of her kid was not too happy by reading this. She could easily say, "It's a pr after a baby a good step."

Ryan has said he needs to learn how to compete better. In the past he has often run his own pace and seen where that put him. Being way in front of the Boston marathon like he was a few years ago in the early miles I don't think means "making the race".

In defense of Hall I would often argue in running if you're not fit enough to win, you're probably not fit enough to make the race. But some of the Kenyan guys who won't make much of a living by not winning just hang up front as long as possible until they blow up. Not necessarily the best mindset but some guys do it.

Ryan could medal in London for sure. Limiting the field to 3 from each country helps all the Americans as the marathon is dominated by Kenya.

I'm very interested in learning about this "outwit" stuff. I bet all us mid-packers are. Shoot, I'm in my 50s, but if I can learn to outwit some of these fast guys and start winning some races, I'm down for it.

You know, I never thought about it. I've just raced as hard as I could and still get myself to the finish line. Next time I'm in a 10K, I'm going to try to outwit some of these sub-30 minute guys.

Any pointers???

Lots of pros and cons here, but the way I see it is that Phil Hersh put himself into the story rather than just writing on the story. the first question was uncalled for the reponse to Hall was even worse. Maybe Phil was having a bad day. More likely is that hehas demonstrated yet again how little class he really has.

runnerdave wrote:

I'm very interested in learning about this "outwit" stuff. I bet all us mid-packers are. Shoot, I'm in my 50s, but if I can learn to outwit some of these fast guys and start winning some races, I'm down for it.

You know, I never thought about it. I've just raced as hard as I could and still get myself to the finish line. Next time I'm in a 10K, I'm going to try to outwit some of these sub-30 minute guys.

Any pointers???

I'm with you on that. Also in my 50s and having a hard time beating the 25 year olds by just running faster than them. But, if it comes down to a game of wits, hell all I can think is, 'why didn't anybody ever tell me that I could just outwit them before?'