Sad story from the 1988 Men's Olympic Trials 1500m

chubb wrote:

Thanks!

With little altitude experience I did not automatically associate "treadmill" with "supplemental O2". This makes perfect. I do remember hearing both Vigil and Whetmore talking about how their XC athletes "had" to get out slow and come on late at nationals due to little work at the early fast pace due to altitude.

Again, thanks for a great explanation.

For a more in-depth treatment of this, see

and

They'll post the third and final installment in a week or so.

I think this is a bit extreme. I'm in my 60s and have had a drink once or twice a week with meals for many years. I enjoy the flavor and it enhances meals in a way that other beverages don't. But in the past 30 years or so I have never had more than 2 drinks at at time or had any desire whatsoever to have more.

The idea that everyone that drinks is susceptible losing control is just nonsense. But the same thing can be said for almost anything.

Let's eliminate credit cards because some people abuse them and get into debt. Do away with gambling and prescription drugs as well. We definitely don't want to encourage running because some women are predisposed to anorexia.

Heck, let's just do away with eating because there are people that will overindulge and become obese.[/quote]

not outlaw drink just don't

you maybe okay but it make many of us stupider

which we can ill afford

95% of people can handle just about any drug (i.e. coke, pot, meth,....). It's the other 5% than crashes and burns. And yeah that is one of the reasons that gambling isn't legal in most of the country. The other big one is that the states don't want any competition for their lotteries:)

wow, this thread has really become quite strange. someone mentions how sad rich's situation has become and from there it just went to shit.

anyway, i ran against rich in the wac conference. met him a few times as we ran against each other--just a nice human being!!...i finished up at byu and he had a couple more years in him at new mexico. but yeah, i am very bummed to hear about what has become of him. and just like someone who posted earlier, i too wonder if there are more recent findings on his situation/whereabouts.

i wish rich martinez all the best and to a speedy recovery. i pray that he can pull himself upright and know that people care about him.

I managed to get through only two pages of this thread before throwing up a little in my mouth. I read descriptions such as SAD, TRAGIC and VICTIM (of alcohol abuse).

Give...me...a...freaKing...break. This guy is a loser. He is pathetic. And let's dispense with the notion that alcoholism is a disease. It's not a disease; it is merely a physical addiction suffered by those who are too weak to make better choices.

This has-been Martinez gets absolutely no sympathy or respect from me. He quit on everyone who cared about him, and he quit on himself. I hope his son (now 21?) hunts him down and kicks him right in the nuts. LOSER!

GUH wrote: There is the good and the bad, and when the bad far outweighs the good in something, it ought to be eliminated.

Agreed. Extremist religious zealots (Christians in particular) have taken the idea of a loving god and twisted it for their own benefit, thus enabling them to use their self-righteous religious beliefs as a license to hate and pass judgment on anyone and everyone who refuses to share their viewpoint.

Therefore, the "bad" of religion and religious types now far outweighs the good, so all organized religions and their followers should be eliminated.

Arrogant much? Care to list the qualifications that make you better able to make such decisions than, say, the American Medical Association?

Tell It Like It Is wrote:

And let's dispense with the notion that alcoholism is a disease. It's not a disease; it is merely a physical addiction suffered by those who are too weak to make better choices.

Tell It Like It Is wrote:

I managed to get through only two pages of this thread before throwing up a little in my mouth. I read descriptions such as SAD, TRAGIC and VICTIM (of alcohol abuse).

Give...me...a...freaKing...break. This guy is a loser. He is pathetic. And let's dispense with the notion that alcoholism is a disease. It's not a disease; it is merely a physical addiction suffered by those who are too weak to make better choices.

This has-been Martinez gets absolutely no sympathy or respect from me. He quit on everyone who cared about him, and he quit on himself. I hope his son (now 21?) hunts him down and kicks him right in the nuts. LOSER!

It's really easy to say stuff like this when you just don't understand.

Er... wrote: Arrogant much? Care to list the qualifications that make you better able to make such decisions than, say, the American Medical Association?

If you can't distinguish arrogance from common sense, then you obviously have none of the latter.

Cancer is a disease. Huntington's is a disease. Alcoholism is a physical addiction that has been mislabeled a disease in order to provide a handy excuse for its spineless sufferers.

I'm one of its sufferers, though I'm neither spineless nor lacking in common sense. I don't use the labeling of alcoholism as a disease as an excuse, either: I got sober and made amends and accepted responsibility for the many, many stupid things I did while addicted to alcohol. But I still believe that it's a disease.

Tell It Like It Is wrote:

Er... wrote: Arrogant much? Care to list the qualifications that make you better able to make such decisions than, say, the American Medical Association?

If you can't distinguish arrogance from common sense, then you obviously have none of the latter.

Cancer is a disease. Huntington's is a disease. Alcoholism is a physical addiction that has been mislabeled a disease in order to provide a handy excuse for its spineless sufferers.

It's interesting how there are several running stars of the 80's who have battled addiction and mental illness. It's tough to go back and face the real world when your entire identity was formerly as a star runner. Highly talented runners really need a back up plan (or a real career). I cringe every time I see highly talented and reasonably intelligent runners majoring in liberal arts in college.

Er... wrote: I'm one of its sufferers, though I'm neither spineless nor lacking in common sense. I don't use the labeling of alcoholism as a disease as an excuse, either: I got sober and made amends and accepted responsibility for the many, many stupid things I did while addicted to alcohol. But I still believe that it's a disease.

Despite the fact I've rubbed you the wrong way, I sincerely commend you for having the strength to overcome and continue battling your physical (and to a certain extent, psychological) addiction. Furthermore, it's good to know you (apparently) have accepted responsibility for your previous weaknesses.

Believe what you will about your own situation, but I'll say this: My mother died from Huntington's Disease. My sister has suffered with the same DISEASE for years and will soon succumb to it as well. I sure wish they could have been strong enough to simply say, "I will not let Huntingtons's destroy my life." But they can't, and do you know why? BECAUSE IT'S A FRIGGIN' DISEASE AND NOT A BATTLE WITH WEAKNESS!

I suffered from Osgood–Schlatter disease when I was in high school and recovered and have not had problems with it yet. Does that not make it a disease because I did not die from it?

Here's a definition for you:

1. A pathological condition of a part, organ, or system of an organism resulting from various causes, such as infection, genetic defect, or environmental stress, and characterized by an identifiable group of signs or symptoms.

2. A condition or tendency, as of society, regarded as abnormal and harmful.

(Medicine / Pathology) any impairment of normal physiological function affecting all or part of an organism, esp a specific pathological change caused by infection, stress, etc., producing characteristic symptoms; illness or sickness in general

Alcoholism is a disease. There are genetic pre-dispositions, habitual actions, and physiological changes that occur to those affected.

Alcoholism is a disease- a disease that afflicts the weak.

Thanks: I accept your commendation with appreciation. And yes, I have accepted responsibility for my actions. I do not understand your labeling alcoholism a "weakness," though. I am sorry that you apparently have the disease of Huntington's running in your family. I have the disease of alcoholism running in mine. Why does that offend you so much?

Tell It Like It Is wrote:

Despite the fact I've rubbed you the wrong way, I sincerely commend you for having the strength to overcome and continue battling your physical (and to a certain extent, psychological) addiction. Furthermore, it's good to know you (apparently) have accepted responsibility for your previous weaknesses.

Believe what you will about your own situation, but I'll say this: My mother died from Huntington's Disease. My sister has suffered with the same DISEASE for years and will soon succumb to it as well. I sure wish they could have been strong enough to simply say, "I will not let Huntingtons's destroy my life." But they can't, and do you know why? BECAUSE IT'S A FRIGGIN' DISEASE AND NOT A BATTLE WITH WEAKNESS!

Even if he had made the Olympic team he still would be living in a van by the river!

Just because its effect on society is more detrimental than other diseases doesn't make its victims any more to blame as "weak". People with heart disease running in their family that eat lots of red meat and saturated fat or lung cancer smoking are as ignorant and guilty as a person with alcoholism running in their family being a bartender.

People seem to view "alcoholics need to take responsibility for their actions" and "alcoholism is a disetake a drink ase" as mutually exclusive. It's not an either-or, it's a both.

An alcoholic who makes a sober decision to start drinking is solely to blame and it's impossible to feel anything besides scorn and resentment about anything that happens thereafter; such people, should they commit crimes or f*** up in ways that are ruinous to others, should be punished for their actions just like anyone else.

But watch what happens AFTER an alcoholic takes that drink. He or she will not react as normal people do. There are bio-chemical differences in alcoholic brains, something to do with dopamine and "pleasure centers" that create an insane urge to drink. It's the only thing that explains how drunks behave once they have a skin full of the shit and I have seen it countless times. Normal people usually stop after 3 or 4 because they don't like the physical sensation. Drunks often drink to blacking out and then some. You can call this a weakness if you must - I have many times - but whatever, it's there and distinguishes alkies from normal drinkers.

Think of it like this. Say a diabetic is having a shitty, hungry day and decides to eat a whole chocolate cake, and doesn't take insulin. She winds up in the ER with keto-acidosis. Yea, she brought it on herself with a decision but does that negate the fact that her body is different from people with normal pnacreas function?

I just got off the phone with Sean Penn. I forwarded the story to his manager earlier in the week after I read it, petitioning him to consider it for a movie (I thought it had alot of "Into the Wild" characteristics about it). Penn thanked me and said he'll definately give it some thought.

Pretty Neat!