Boys NJ MOC 3200 stopped with one lap to go

I am very discouraged by the attitude of people with extremist points of view here that barely have silvers of logical background.

First thing first, it was stupid for them to start this race. Plain and simple.

However that is a whole other reason for them making the proper call to suspend the race.

If a certified athletic trainer or meet director was on hand (if there was one present) has the option of making this call with the officals. This is the following regulation which is followed by the NCAA, NATA (national athletic trainers association and the National Serve Storm Labortories.

__________________________________________________________

“FLASH-TO BANG” Method

The National Severe Storms Laboratory (NSSL), National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) and the National Athletic Trainers’ Association (NATA) recommend the use of the flash to bang ratio to help determine when cover should be taken. This method requires no equipment and is an easy way to determine the distance from the last lighting strike. To use the flash-to-bang method, begin counting on the lightning flash, and stop counting when the associated thunder is heard. Divide this number (in seconds) by 5 to determine the distance (in miles) to the lightning flash. For example, if the time in seconds between the lightning being spotted and the thunder being hear is equal to 30, divide that by 5, and you get 6 (30/5=6). Therefore, that lightning flash was approximately 6 miles away from the observer.

-----------------------------------------------------------

So if the lighting was in fact within 30 seconds of the thunder they have every right to pull the kids off the track. Yes, im a runner and I still run in lighting storms however sadly, we live in a time and age with legal liability is at an all time high.

So while it was stupid of them trying to get this race in if they had a prior knowledge of the storm tracking path. However they risked it and in the end while not the best call was the right call.

Now this is going to get into the what if game which leads no where but I just want to bring out to points. One what if they let them finishes, no one is struck by lighting and the kid gets the vicotry. Simple right? Now what if they let them run the extra 90 second and a kid gets struck by lighting and goes into cardiac arrest. The policy's that would come down after this accident would be astronomical and no one would be allowed to run even if there was a threat of rain.

With all of this said, I was not in NJ or even the northeast at this point. I have no reference to what type of support they had or even policy's in place. My data is taken from what I have learned in my pursuit of becoming an athletic trainer and what I believe to the the policy's in place.

My point of writing was try to inform people of what goes behind making a call like this and while I do not argee with starting the race if these conditions were present, they did in the end for the safety of everyone make the right call in the end. If anyone has any questions my email is linked to my screen name.

what would have happen if the rosas would have just finished?

that barrier looked passable if they had tried. would they have been dqed from a race that didn't finish?

i almost feel like it would have been worth it for them to try to finish run a pr and everyone would recognize it as a record (if they broke it) except new jersey high school athletics and i would be okay with that. instead they have that terrible feeling of what if.

Your right that it is about the what if here however, state record or not, the guys at that point were in a point which can cause immediate danger to the athletes. We know the odds are very high however it is still a threat that needs to be dealt with.

Stated above in the flash to bang ratio, the lighting would be in a radius of 6 miles at that point however lighting has been known to strike 10 miles from where it last struck

V O wrote:

Liberal scum? Didn't George W pass the patriot act?

yeah what? wasn't the airport security step-up a conservative idea?

I would have loved to have seen the Rosa brothers go for it and have third to last just say "eff it" and boycott the barrier. What would they do DQ the whole race? Honestly, if the Rosa's dont care (doubt they do at this point) about the MoC on Monday they should have just kept going. On that video the second brother was saying to just keep going until the officials said there would be DQs.

Seriously, everyone defending the officials neglect the fact there was about 100 fans on metal bleachers (the stands cleared from the rain) and about 150 fans hanging onto the metal fences (I was one). Then it took about 10-15 mins to clear the entire stands (of angry fans) so at that point did another 90 secs of a race on a rubberized track really make a difference? They did nothing to rush the athletes off the field/track. The officials botched the race from pre to during.

Dick Vigilante wrote:

This is the exact sentiment I was talking about. You're likely one of the people suggesting that the Rosas boycott the race when it's rerun.

It's not a boycott. They have already run the race dummy.

clearing the bs up wrote:

http://highschoolsports.nj.com/videoplayer/2201600/jim-rosa-wanted-3200m-race-to-continue-as-steve-timko-of-njsiaa-explains-why-the-race-was-called-due-to-lightning-and-thunder/

Video of the incident. F***ing pathetic.

Wow, that is pathetic, F*** the officials!

i don't understand what is accomplished by stopping the race and not clearing the infield versus continuing with the race. there are a lot of people in the video, including the runners in the race, on the track and all over the infield. if safety were such a concern, then why was there no effort to move everyone away?

As a coach who was at the meet who is also a meet director of a large invitational I can say for sure that there is no way in hell that race or the unseeded section before it should have been run. They were making announcements for a long time before the meet - one official even came all the way across the infield to yell at the kids waiting under the bleachers on the back straightaway that if the call was made they better leave. The way they were yelling at kids and making announcements on the PA it was obvious they knew that they knew that something serious was coming and they were going to have to empty the place out fast.

There was no lightning detector at the meet. Considering how easily they go off, they probably wouldn't have even run the 200 if there were a detector there. So they're screaming at kids, making announcement after announcement about the evacuation plan (but still dragging their feet on calling the meet), while the conditions get worse and worse. It took the police to pull the plug on the meet because meet management couldn't sack up and make the right call. By then it was a dangerous situation for sure - there's lightning all around and it's a quarter-mile walk to the school. They're lucky no one was struck on their way out of the stadium.

Side note - None of the guys from the Star Ledger were the one to take the mic to bash the NJSIAA - those guys are way too professional to do that, no matter how disappointed they were at the decision.

Your right, no it doesnt really make a difference but it is protocol really to make sure the saftey of all athlete and spectators.

Like i said before im not defending the officals, im defending calling the race. it is there fault for not following the weather more precisely.

Yes exactly my point. The other poster said that it was because of liberal scum so I was pointing out that the patriot act was passed by a conservative president.

This is simply a question of risk management. A very clear standard needs to be set in order to provide the best safety for the underage minors competing in this race and this is all it is...just a race. These are not professionals. These are kids. THEY do not know what is in their best interests, their parents do and the authorities which govern their sport have every right to create these rules to protect them.

The standard on lighting safety is clear across the board....you hear thunder or see lightning then you stop the event. You restart the event, if you can, when the event has passed.

There are very similar situations in the army when it comes to heat casualties. I would jump at the chance to crawl around a confined space tube in MOPP4 or a Level B suit and an SCBA in 90+ degree Missouri heat....but training rules dictate otherwise so you downgrade to PTs. Outdoor training has been cancelled or postponed in the past due to the weather be it lightning or snow and ice.

It's all about composite risk management and getting a kid killed just so he can run another lap is not worth the risk no matter how fast he runs. There will always be other races.

The officials did what they were supposed to do. In this situation their hands were tied.

Alan

They called the meet at the worst possible time. They could have postponed the meet due to the heat, not started the race at all because of the storm, or even stopped the race in the first few laps where it would not take too much out of the runners. Good job officials (NOT!). The officials stop the race due to lighting and don't even care about the 100 degree weather there was going into the meet. Jeremy Elkaim even went down (and I think passed out) in the middle of the race and I am guessing it was because of the extreme heat there was earlier. The heat was more dangerous than the lighting.

Article on front page of Yahoo:

http://highschool.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1230222

My favorite line:

"The national record of 8:34.23, set by German Fernandez of Riverbank, Calif., is considered one of the few untouchable high school marks."

(Granted that may be the 3200 mark, I'm not sure, but still very poor journalism.)

try this wrote:

Article on front page of Yahoo:

http://highschool.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1230222

My favorite line:

"The national record of 8:34.23, set by German Fernandez of Riverbank, Calif., is considered one of the few untouchable high school marks."

(Granted that may be the 3200 mark, I'm not sure, but still very poor journalism.)

fernandez has the record for a high school only race, verzbikas time was against open athletes.

they consider it 2 different records.

If it's so simple, why did they wait until Joe had 600 to go to call the race when there were several visible lightning strikes during laps 2 and 3? The officials did NOT put safety first. If they did, they would have evacuated the whole place 15 minutes before that race had begun when it was obvious that it was going to get ugly. Considering the distance to the school and the bottleneck that every person in the stadium had to go through to get there, you're talking about 15-20 minutes until the place is empty and everyone is safe.

Their hands were NOT tied. Their mistake was not calling the meet sooner so everyone could get out of there BEFORE it became dangerous.

The problem isn't that the officials stopped the race. The problem is that the race should have never been started. Yesterday was a wasted race effort by a lot of kids who have big things coming up in the next few weeks. This poor decision forces them to skip Monday's re-run, or compromise their chance at a big race at nationals.

So no one had an iPhone or anything and the WeatherChannel app or wunderground.com and couldn't see the big red dot thunderstorm heading there way?

Another wrote:

So no one had an iPhone or anything and the WeatherChannel app or wunderground.com and couldn't see the big red dot thunderstorm heading there way?

red dot? more like red swath that covered half the state

NolanQQ wrote:

all the competitors should honestly refuse to race; running 7 laps is the same as racing the whole thing; essentially they ran a race that wont count

Completely false. While it was certainly a decent effort already put out there, most of the damage in an all out 3200 comes on the last lap. They should be able to recover fine. it's that last lap when they are all out after doing 7 at 8:40ish pace that puts the lead in the legs.