Dear Barefoot Runners

machinegunfunk wrote:Btw thank your for the quote supporting my argument. They will put shoes on as soon as they can afford it. That is my point. What were you thinking?

Your point is that Kenyans (generally speaking really fast runners) prefer to run in shoes when they can afford them? Doesn't seem to support your argument at all but that's pretty consistent with you barefoot nutters.

I dislike how most people are zealots on this issue.

Most likely caused by the exaggerations in born to run or they are just self-righteous pricks.

I ran mostly in stability shoes during college XC. The exception was when the NFL ended up putting grass where our track was supposed to be. So I had the opportunity to run on a grass track. End result it was a wonderful feeling and my fastest workouts ever plus my PF went away for 2 years. I knew nothing about barefoot running or minimalism at the time. I saw a grass track and threw my shoes off much to the dismay and strict warning from the athletic trainers.

Years later I tried VFF's and after adapting to them its what I prefer to run in. Maybe they will work for you maybe not. I don't care what you put on your feet just don't harass me about doing something that takes away my pain and doesn't affect you all in any way. I went 10mi in Bikila shoes earlier today (Pace about 7min).

I can't stand the people on both sides who preach.

Most people who run in regular shoes are slow and fat... the same goes for barefoot types.

You were referring to a quote telling me that kenyans are intelligently enough to put shoes on. Since you dismissed the fact that runners (on all levels) put shoes on when they can afford them (with money or because of sponsorship) I took it as your main point with the quote was to tell me that shoes were better. In the next sentence you say "I have never said shoes are better, only that they aren't worse". So you didn't say it but you were referring to it.

Btw do you got a study to back up that shoes aren't worse?

Technically...yes. But you take no notice of the dorsiflexion and where the weight is placed. You just see what your eyes see.

Overstriding and true heel striking goes hand in hand. How are you suppose to overstride if you don't put down your heel first? Elite runners don't heel strike in the same manner as I said earlier.

This is what I wrote:

Really fast runners wears top of the line shoes and why shouldn't they if the general idea is that shoes are better. The shoe industry claims shoes are better for performance and they are 'experts' in this matter. We must believe them just as we must believe every commercial on TV. A shoe is to a large extent just a well marketed product.

No study to prove it, but do you have one to show otherwise?

Glad we agree on that then.

Landing with heel first = heel striking, we already got this established

You are free to 'think' what you want here but don't try to pass off your opinion as fact.

HHH wrote:

No study to prove it, but do you have one to show otherwise?

I was the one asking for the study this time....you came up empty handed which is quite remarkable since speaking without the support of a fancy study is a big no no for you.

HHH wrote:

Glad we agree on that then.

Many of your beliefs are built upon ignorance. With the heel striking you are arguing against the law of physics if you can't understand the difference I pointed out. The body weight will be placed on the part of the foot closest to the center of gravity.

Considering a slightly forward body lean as normal while running:

Heel striking with full weight on the heel = overstriding.

"Heel striking" (due to dorsiflexion) with full weight on midfoot/forefoot = normal striding.

Dorsiflexion is a good thing, distance runners and sprinters wouldn't be doing it otherwise. Some touches the heel into the ground while others don't. It's the same thing but different ways of doing it. No braking occurs.

Shoes promotes overstriding while running barefoot doesn't. Is this so hard to understand?

If Im wrong about all this, then just explain it, educate me instead of your normally short ignorant answers without any substance. Im more than willing to change my mind if Im wrong. It's better to be wrong than ignorant. And then we can end this discussion.

I wonder what the age expectancy was for humans when everyone ran barefoot? 30's perhaps at a max?

UnderSnowInWyo wrote:

I wonder what the age expectancy was for humans when everyone ran barefoot? 30's perhaps at a max?

Thats because many died at birth.(like over half) If one child dies and another lives to 60, the average life is 30 years.

Fair enough, I cannot prove the statement that shoes are not worse than running barefoot. Nor can I prove the statement that heel striking is no worse than mid/flat/fore foot striking. But there are no valid studies to prove the opposite.

What beliefs do I hold? Your statement is the only ignorant one.

Which law of physics am I arguing against?

Over striding is over striding. You can over stride while landing fore/mid/flat footed too. Heel striking is landing on your heel. You already acknowledged this, you need to take a different line of arguing.

I have never said that dorsiflexion was a bad thing. Do you always try to put words into other people's mouths? That's 3 times so far on this one post alone!

Do you have a valid study to prove this? It's not a matter of not understanding, it's a matter of there not being any proof to back up your statement.

There you go again calling me names, I thought you wanted to be civil? Look, the only thing you need to be educated about is that there is no right or wrong way to foot strike. It's not as black and white as you minimalist guys want to make it. As with all things in life, it's mostly shades of grey.

From my experiences as an athlete, a fan and student of the sport and a coach; foot strike is a function of speed, it will change as you speed up and as you slow down. Do what feels natural to you, don't force it either way. There are people running very fast with all sorts of foot strikes and mechanics. Might they get faster if they changed? Possibly. Might they get injured if they try? Possibly. From my experiences, I don't think that this an area worth spending too much time or energy on unless you are chronically injured. If that's the case, then it might be worth trying to change your footstrike and/or overall form. But if you are running well and staying healthy, I personally wouldn't bother. In my opinion, your body will adapt and find it's most efficient way to run as you train more. I can't prove any of that. But you can't disprove it either.

You minimalist guys tend to see things as all or nothing, stop being so absolute. Your way is not the only way. If you are willing to stop stating your theories as fact, I'm willing to let this go.

"You minimalist guys tend to see things as all or nothing, stop being so absolute. Your way is not the only way. If you are willing to stop stating your theories as fact, I'm willing to let this go."

LMAO. For several decades the running shoe industry promoted "heel toe" running as the only option.

At the Boston marathon expo, Martin Shorten, who is considered the top biomechanics guy in the industry stated that "when leaping forward (running) the ONLY possible landing is on the heel"

he was asked "what about triple jumpers" and he said the land on their heels in all phases of the triple jump.

Both groups can be dogmatic, but it is the shoe people like runners world that are the worst offenders

HHH it's good to see that you finally took the time to respond for the first time. I accept your point of view, although I disagree. No hard feelings.

My way isn't the only way you are right about that. But I do believe my points are valid and that I can use them to enhance my own running. To tell you the truth I don't care if nobody believes me. I don't have to convice you or anyone else only myself. But I must say I do get a bit sick when I go into a running store and hear what kind of advice you get regarding shoes. Or when I hear other runners talking about how important all features in shoe are.

I don't see things as all or nothing, I wear all sorts of shoes myself mostly because it's more convienient (like any other western). It's a bad habit but the adaption to minimalistic shoes takes time and I will not stress into it.

Our little discussion ends here. Thanks for your input. Have a nice day.