Dominguez detained in doping investigation

Africancoach wrote:

Systematic doping over a period of time may easily produce consistent results over a long period time so this does not rule out the possibility of someone using PED.

Where has this worked? Russia is the most successfully consistent country in the distances, but they also have 139 million people, the eighth highest GDP in the world, and the majority of their middle and long distance success is just in women (as it has been in Eastern Europe). East Africa, however, is the best in the world in both genders, and is even more competitive in women than in men.

Can you think of a country that we know has had systematic doping that had a number of individual men and women at the very top for extended periods of time? East Germany had Cierpinski, Herold, and to a lesser extent Melzer (8:10 once), Schildhauer (13:12 once, a number of mid to high 27s), Straub (3:33 in 1979). Am I missing others that would be competitive in today's environment? It's nothing that compares to what's coming out of East Africa today.

[quote]Renato Canova wrote:

When we have suspicions about doping ? When an athlete is able to have some top result, without showing any consistency. The case of Bezabeh can clarify this conception : look at his best 10 performances.

12'57"25 (7) Oslo 4 Jun 2010

13'10"10 (1) Huelva 10 Jun 2009

13'18"74 (11) Roma 10 Jul 2009

13'18"95 (2) Aviles 17 Jul 2010

13'20"46 (9) Huelva 13 Jun 2008

13'29"57 (6) Barcelona 19 Jul 2008

13'29"95 (2) Barcelona 10 Jun 2006

13'30"48 (11) Beijing 23 Aug 2008

13'31"85 (2) Bilbao 1 Jul 2006

13'33"52 (10)h Berlin 20 Aug 2009

quote]

Very Ritz and Teg-ish

By the wat Canova, you're suspect # 1 by anyone who understands the sport. Sleep well tonight.

It's sad to see Mr Canova facing criticism on this topic, as he has integrity. However, he implies that Bezabeh was surely doped, which has not been proved. On that one, he is possibly 'jumping the gun.'

We have to wait and see. Bezabeh's progression is possible from an athlete who is relatively new to the advantages of living in a western euro country with all the advantages (nutrition, life style, coaching) that go with it.

Ghost in Saudi.

www.kfupm.edu.sa

, apply today.

Very Ritz and Teg-ish

By the wat Canova, you're suspect # 1 by anyone who understands the sport. Sleep well tonight.

Really? Teg had a long-term progression that included getting into some good races and running 7:40-low a year or so out of college (and decent, if injured, college times, coupled with a 5th at World Junior XC, behind RITZ (3rd) and Bekele, a narrow 4th at 5000, an AR at 2 miles, a series of increasingly better 1500/mile times.

You seem to be a LetsRun troll/narrow focus on PR combination. Often a top PR is a function of getting into the right 'time trial' race at the right times in one's training. The LR guys (always guys) then are mesmerized by those times to the exclusion of better performances in racing situations.

Note that Ritz, besides the early great success, had a very good college career, ran well in Beijing, ...

But then, you do not even hide between an internet handle, you have no consistent handle at all, so shut up [or put up, always with the same handle or an explanation that for a one-time post it is a different one].

26mi235 wrote:

Note that Ritz, besides the early great success, had a very good college career, ran well in Beijing, ...

But then, you do not even hide between an internet handle, you have no consistent handle at all, so shut up [or put up, always with the same handle or an explanation that for a one-time post it is a different one].

Moron, the career 5000 PR's listed are very much like Ritz and Teg's. That's all I said. You're knowledge of what they did in high school or in gym class is irrelevent. And don't get your panties in a bind. This is Let's fvckin Run. This place has been crucifying every european runner and every cyclist including Americans that have never failed a single test for years and you don't as much as bat an eyelash. Now someone suspects an American runner and you are acting like I insulted the queen. Maybe you should shut you're pie hole.

the assertion doping ( likely epo or blood doping ) doesn't work on east africans is wrong

logic dictates it will have an effect, but as you point out of their higher natural haematocrits/lactate tolerance will likely mean a lesser effect with doping

if you have a "natural" 3'35 white boy & he dopes by x, he may end up a 3'32 guy, perhaps even 3'31

an east african who "naturally" is a 3'30 guy also dopes by x amount, may end up at 3'28.5

they both will improve but the east african by far less as they "naturally" have such high pre-existing parameters of haematocrit/lactate tolerance

it's a question of degrees of effect NOT a blanket

"no effect on east africans"

A coach saying PED's have no effect on African runners is akin with Lance Armstrong saying PED's do not work, which he definately said at least once. In other words, it makes them look more suspicious. If someone asks if you ever took PED's, the most apropriate answer would be a simple "no". But when you add the qualifier "and furthermore, they don't even work", that is a classic sign of someone trying to hide something. Especially if it is something that has insermountable evidence against it, such as the non-effectiveness of PED's on African's or in general. This can be found in chapter one of any psychology book. I'm not acusing LAnce Armstrong or anybody of anything, just stating basic psychology.

I already explained several times WHY I don't believe in any doping effect for this type of athletes.

I know exactly WHAT MY ATHLETES USE AS NUTRITION, and, how I described, NEVER THEY USED ANY SUPPORT, also legal.

So, this is the list of the athletes I coached in long distances (I give the example of 10,000m, because some year ago there was a pseudo-scientific work speaking about an advantage between 40.0 and 1:10 in this event, if the runners take EPO) :

26'30" Nicholas Kemboi (from 28'19" with 50 days of

REAL training)

26'38" Ahmed Hassan (Albert Chepkurui)

26'49" Moses Mosop

26'52" John Korir

26'52" Mark Bett

27'26" (WR in altitude) Wilson Kiprop (equivalent to

26'45" at sea level)

So, since I know all these athletes didn't use any support, DO YOU THINK I CAN REALLY BELIEVE THAT, IF I GAVE PED, I COULD HAVE 6 ATHLETES UNDER 26' ?

The fact that for this kind of talent is possible to increase their total volume of blood of 20-25%, is something investigated by a group leaded by Bengt Saltin, that can be considered one of the most prepared researchers with top athletes (Saltin and his equipe went to Kenya in 1995 for researching, using biopsy, the genetical difference between the muscular fibers of Kenyans and athletes from Scandinavia). I think that, if you are interested, you can find (also in Internet) some data about this research.

After all, I want to define precisely some points :

1- While top coaches, of all events, don't speak about doping (to be silent is always a good solution for not having problems), I'm very clear in my ideas, knowing that I go to face incredulity from people already having in their mind the stereotype of "all top athletes doped"

2- While almost all people posting in letsrun speak about something they heard, I speak about FACTS coming from 40 years of training with athletes of different levels

3- NEVER I read something about a PERSONAL EDUCATION against doping. Always we speak about "not cheating", about the damage for the health, about the need to make harder any type of control. BUT NEVER WE SAY THAT 90% OF DOPING HAS THE ONLY EFFECT TO PUT MONEY IN THE POCKET OF DOCTORS / MANAGERS (and may be also Coaches), without enhancing any performance.

4- I think is time to have a different way for educating athletes against doping. First thing, explaining that is possible to train very hard, to recover and to have results only thru training. For me, BEFORE BEING A CHEATER, some athlete using a lot of pharmacs (also legal) is STUPID, because spend a lot of money for something that doesn't have significative result. If you see the room of a cyclist during Giro d'Italia or Tour de France or Vuelta, you see not less than 20 different pharmacs that he takes every day. Supposing that 3 of them can really enhance performances and/or aiding to recover in short time, THE OTHER 17 ARE FOR LIMITING THE COLLATERAL EFFECTS of what they use.

5- Today, money about the World of Sport dramatically decreases. The only sector where we continue to have an increase of investment is in ANTIDOPING. Also if everybody understands we need a specific deterrent against this practice, THE MAIN GOAL OF EVERY SPORT CAN'T BE TO PRODUCE MONEY (without any moral value) AND TO USE ANY SYSTEM FOR THIS FINAL TARGET. And, one of the ways for producing money is to multiplicate the Antidoping Agencies, instead using some budget FOR EDUCATING ATHLETES TO THE TRUE VALUES OF SPORT. I cant agree, for example, with a government that continues to invest in POLICE, cutting budgets for EDUCATION. Sorry, my World is a place where I want to live giving credit to other people, not thinking that everybody is able to do something better than the average is "doped" (not only in sport).

6- Finally, because everybody knows my position about training and performances (simply I refuse the idea of any pharmacological support for training better), I have a lot of athletes asking to be technically followed BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE IN A CLEAN ACTIVITY AND HAVE STRONGER MOTIVATION THAN ATHLETES LOOKING FOR MATERIAL ADVANTAGES ONLY.

So, believe me, the most part of athletes WANT to be clean, and to see where they can arrive, with their strength only.

I already explained several times WHY I don't believe in any doping effect for this type of athletes.

I know exactly WHAT MY ATHLETES USE AS NUTRITION, and, how I described, NEVER THEY USED ANY SUPPORT, also legal.

So, this is the list of the athletes I coached in long distances (I give the example of 10,000m, because some year ago there was a pseudo-scientific work speaking about an advantage between 40.0 and 1:10 in this event, if the runners take EPO) :

26'30" Nicholas Kemboi (from 28'19" with 50 days of

REAL training)

26'38" Ahmed Hassan (Albert Chepkurui)

26'49" Moses Mosop

26'52" John Korir

26'52" Mark Bett

27'26" (WR in altitude) Wilson Kiprop (equivalent to

26'45" at sea level)

So, since I know all these athletes didn't use any support, DO YOU THINK I CAN REALLY BELIEVE THAT, IF I GAVE PED, I COULD HAVE 6 ATHLETES UNDER 26' ?

The fact that for this kind of talent is possible to increase their total volume of blood of 20-25%, is something investigated by a group leaded by Bengt Saltin, that can be considered one of the most prepared researchers with top athletes (Saltin and his equipe went to Kenya in 1995 for researching, using biopsy, the genetical difference between the muscular fibers of Kenyans and athletes from Scandinavia). I think that, if you are interested, you can find (also in Internet) some data about this research.

After all, I want to define precisely some points :

1- While top coaches, of all events, don't speak about doping (to be silent is always a good solution for not having problems), I'm very clear in my ideas, knowing that I go to face incredulity from people already having in their mind the stereotype of "all top athletes doped"

2- While almost all people posting in letsrun speak about something they heard, I speak about FACTS coming from 40 years of training with athletes of different levels

3- NEVER I read something about a PERSONAL EDUCATION against doping. Always we speak about "not cheating", about the damage for the health, about the need to make harder any type of control. BUT NEVER WE SAY THAT 90% OF DOPING HAS THE ONLY EFFECT TO PUT MONEY IN THE POCKET OF DOCTORS / MANAGERS (and may be also Coaches), without enhancing any performance.

4- I think is time to have a different way for educating athletes against doping. First thing, explaining that is possible to train very hard, to recover and to have results only thru training. For me, BEFORE BEING A CHEATER, some athlete using a lot of pharmacs (also legal) is STUPID, because spend a lot of money for something that doesn't have significative result. If you see the room of a cyclist during Giro d'Italia or Tour de France or Vuelta, you see not less than 20 different pharmacs that he takes every day. Supposing that 3 of them can really enhance performances and/or aiding to recover in short time, THE OTHER 17 ARE FOR LIMITING THE COLLATERAL EFFECTS of what they use.

5- Today, money about the World of Sport dramatically decreases. The only sector where we continue to have an increase of investment is in ANTIDOPING. Also if everybody understands we need a specific deterrent against this practice, THE MAIN GOAL OF EVERY SPORT CAN'T BE TO PRODUCE MONEY (without any moral value) AND TO USE ANY SYSTEM FOR THIS FINAL TARGET. And, one of the ways for producing money is to multiplicate the Antidoping Agencies, instead using some budget FOR EDUCATING ATHLETES TO THE TRUE VALUES OF SPORT. I cant agree, for example, with a government that continues to invest in POLICE, cutting budgets for EDUCATION. Sorry, my World is a place where I want to live giving credit to other people, not thinking that everybody is able to do something better than the average is "doped" (not only in sport).

6- Finally, because everybody knows my position about training and performances (simply I refuse the idea of any pharmacological support for training better), I have a lot of athletes asking to be technically followed BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE IN A CLEAN ACTIVITY AND HAVE STRONGER MOTIVATION THAN ATHLETES LOOKING FOR MATERIAL ADVANTAGES ONLY.

So, believe me, the most part of athletes WANT to be clean, and to see where they can arrive, with their strength only.

ghost wrote:

It's sad to see Mr Canova facing criticism on this topic, as he has integrity. However, he implies that Bezabeh was surely doped, which has not been proved. On that one, he is possibly 'jumping the gun.'

We have to wait and see. Bezabeh's progression is possible from an athlete who is relatively new to the advantages of living in a western euro country with all the advantages (nutrition, life style, coaching) that go with it.

Ghost in Saudi.

http://www.kfupm.edu.sa

, apply today.

Ghost,

I'm not sure if you've thought through what the concept of "presumption of innocence" actually means. It means that in the context of a criminal trial the onus is on the state to prove the guilt of a defendent beyond reasonable doubt and means that a defendent doesn't need to prove his innocence. I agree with that concept.

The "presumption of innocence" concept does not apply on this message board and on Letsrun when it comes to PED speculation and on this I support the Brojos fully.

(1) Taking PEDs in a sport which has rules banning the taking of PEDs is not a crime in most jurisdictions. It may be a crime in some jurisdictions but that actually does not interest us. We're not terribly interested in criminal sanctions that PED users may face. All we want is to get rid of PEDs in our sport. If the relevant sporting federations were able to do this without the help of criminal authorities we would be happy. Unfortunately sporting federations powers in this respect are limited.

(2) We're not against people taking PEDs in sport: we're not that illiberal. People can screw up their lives if they want PROVIDED that they stay away from our championships, our Olympics, our NCAAs, our European XC champs etc. The PED takers should kindly set up their own parallel freakshow Olympics in which there are no rules and which we will ignore. We're simply against people taking them in contravention of the rule and competing against clean athletes. When we watched the 1500m mens final in Beijing we did it because we wanted to know who was the best clean athlete. We didn't want that Ramzi PED bullshit. It pissed us off.

(3) In the case of Bezabeh, he has according to Spanish media sources admitted that he may be involved in doping. He has also pulled out of the European XC champs in which he is the current holder and (in the absence of Mo) the favourite to win. Are these the actions of a clean athlete? He has made no public statement declaring that he is innocent. He is, in effect, with these actions inviting us to assume he is guilty.

(4) In criminal trials the prosecution usually have a reasonable chance of prooving the guilt of a criminal. Not so in the world of EPO, it is far harder with drug tests to prove the guilt of an athlete and this is a terrible shame. Marion never failed a drugs test yet we know she cheated. The Russian 7 never failed drugs tests, they were only caught because of a tip-off from inside and then it was found they all had the same urine sample. And we know they cheated. Look at Carmelita Jeter! She doesn't fail drug tests. Look at Ludmila Petrova! She doesn't fail drugs tests either. It makes me weep. Because drugs tests only have limited uses we are forced to put pressure from other sources on obvious drugs users.

(5) The mainstream media are scared of lawsuits. Look at my own BBC and Marion - they wouldn't call her a drugs cheat. I am not in favour of mob rule in general and support libel laws, but I am realistic too. When drugs tests are not effective and the mainstream media is part of the conspiracy of silence we must stand behind the Brojos and speak out and protest at drug cheat Ramzi and drug cheat Dominguez and drug cheat Blonska. Nobody else is going to do it for us. We're not doing it because we want to. We're doing it because we LOVE the sport. We love those athletes that run clean and train hard, in the cold and in the dark and in the winter. When they are denied medals it make us sick. (Hatti Dean, british steeplechaser who was fourth in the europeans behind Dominguez will probably never stand on a podium in her life, while drug supplier Domniguez has stood on one countless times. Mo Farah, second in eurocross behind Bezabeh, should have got the gold. Lisa frigging Dobriskey, fourth in european 1500m behind Fernandez and Dehiba, gets criticed by the British press for poor tactics. What was she meant to do? when facing the holy trinity of Alminova, Dehiba and Fernandez, Dobriskey needed more than tactics, she needed a miracle.)

If you're a thinking man and you love our sport you need to open your eyes and to see with them. You need to have the balls to call a PED user a PED user. Don't give me this "presumption of innocence" / "not been proved" bullshit. We don't have the time.

In spanish athletic circles it was wide known that many of Pascua's athletes were competing with more "advantages" than the rest. As long as they were winning medals, they were given almost "free-pass" into mayor competitions.

Now that finally everything is coming out (aparently thanks to the confessions of "paquillo" Fernandez) many athletes have russed to denounce a situation that has been running on for years.

In Spain we have clean athletes, some of them have won medals, but we should try to be happy to be what we are, a good country in medium and long races, fist class in Europe, but imposible to race against africans, and admit it. More names will come out of this, I hope that for the greater good of the sport, even if it means losing medals and international caché.

In the USA you had the Balco affaire, and many athletes caught in 100 and 400 meters, because there is big money in it, in Spain we have this. I sincerely hope that your Rupps, Solinskis et altri are clean.

Now in Spain we only have Sergio Sanchez able to race agains africans, many of you in this forum have doubted him, after his past winter season.

If you understand spanish, here you have a letter he wrote two months ago about doping.

http://ochocalles.blogspot.com/2010/10/sergio-sanchez-habla-claro-sobre-el_24.htmlAfter

all that is coming out, it is hard for anybody to believe blindly in top athletes, but perhaps you can have another different view.

About Marta Dominguez, yesterday I heard an interview with his former and life-long coach in Palencia(from age 12 to 34) in wich he recalled that their break-up was very sad for him, and he lamented the "bad companies" wich with Marta was, during the last months (2007-2008, I think). For me, very clarifying

Vasque,

Thanks very much for your post.

Is there a Spanish equivalent of Letsrun? Where on the internet can I read about what the Spanish long-distance running community actually thinks about this?

Thanks

p.s. your link didn't work, so please copy and paste.

sorry.

http://ochocalles.blogspot.com/2010/10/sergio-sanchez-habla-claro-sobre-el_24.html

An equivalent should be this:

http://www.elatleta.com/foro/forum.php

It is classified into sub-categories (not as easy to use as letsrun), the sub forum for this is "atletismo profesional"

Or directly this:

http://www.elatleta.com/foro/showthread.php?137597-Operaci%C3%B3n-antidopaje

Or this:

http://www.elatleta.com/foro/showthread.php?137596-Operaci%C3%B3n-Galgo-Registran-el-domicilio-de-Marta-Dominguez

vasque wrote:

About Marta Dominguez, yesterday I heard an interview with his former and life-long coach in Palencia...

What do you know - Dominguez turns out not just to be a drug supplier, as well as the vice president of the Spanish athletics federation, she's also world champion at women's steeplechase at the same time as being a MAN!

HER former and life-long coach...

I have problems with English, as you can notice... ;)

vasque wrote:

Now in Spain we only have Sergio Sanchez able to race agains africans, many of you in this forum have doubted him, after his past winter season.

If you understand spanish, here you have a letter he wrote two months ago about doping.

http://ochocalles.blogspot.com/2010/10/sergio-sanchez-habla-claro-sobre-el_24.htmlAfter

all that is coming out, it is hard for anybody to believe blindly in top athletes, but perhaps you can have another different view.

Vasque, thanks for this link. Frankly, I was wondering whether Sanchez could be among the athletes who were investigated in Operación Galgo. I didn't really know much about his background until I read about his life story on the blog. Very interesting insights.

Moreover, I really agree with many points "Some Coked Up Brit" posted on this page. As far as my Spanish goes, the athletics federation RFEA will give a press conference on Monday providing more info about the incident. Maybe this will shed light upon this whole affair.

Renato,

There is now way that you or anyone else for that matter can now what their athletes use as nutrition, unless you live with them and feed them all the time year round, which you don't do. I beginning to wonder about you Coach Renato????