Cal international

JLR wrote:

This is actually quite meaningless without knowing how many prior marathons the typical participant has run.

The specific quote is:

"about 25% of the runners here set new personal bests"

So just off of gut feel, how many different marathons would you say the average marathoner has done? Maybe more importantly, what is the median number of marathons you think marathoners have done?

Maybe without doing any research you think most have only done one, two or three. Maybe you here enough from your buddies about the marathon they did last month and the one they are doing next year that you think most have done six, seven or more marathons.

Whatever your guess, that can give you your own conclusion as to whether CIM gets a disproportionate share of PBs and whether that suggests it might be a slightly aided course.

JLR wrote:

This is actually quite meaningless without knowing how many prior marathons the typical participant has run.

Um, yeah wrote:

The specific quote is:

"about 25% of the runners here set new personal bests"

So just off of gut feel, how many different marathons would you say the average marathoner has done? Maybe more importantly, what is the median number of marathons you think marathoners have done?

Maybe without doing any research you think most have only done one, two or three. Maybe you here enough from your buddies about the marathon they did last month and the one they are doing next year that you think most have done six, seven or more marathons.

I really have no idea. I would guess that in a typical field the largest group of participants are first-timers. All of these participants technically set PRs - but the quote implies that these runners are excluded from the 25% fraction (i.e., "new personal best" implies there was a prior personal best).

Since marathoning is still relatively rare (i.e., most Americans have not run one yet), I would guess that the second largest fraction of participants will be second time marathon runners.

What's really important is the distribution of the number of prior marathons.

Let's say the distribution is geometric. This is a plausible distribution because it is the distribution of outcomes from a set of independent trials in which the one parameter of the distribuion, p, is the probability that any trial (e.g., a marathon) will be your last.

If we set p to p=0.5, which corresponds to an average number of marathons of 1/p=2, and do the math, then we can calculate that the probability of PRing on a course of average difficulty is 0.39 (excluding runners with no prior marathons, all of whom technically PR). If we up p to p=1/3 (3 average marathons), then the probability of PRing on an average course goes down to 0.32. For p=0.25 (4 marathons on average) the probability is 0.28 and for 5 average marathons the probability of PRing on a course of average difficulty is approximately 0.25.

Of course, the distribution of number of prior marathons may not be geometric. It could be a mixture of two distributions: for example, a distribution for "one and done" marathoners who will run one or two marathons in total - and then a distribution of "life-long" marathoners, for whom the total number of marathons run increases as a function of their age. Nonetheless, this example illustrates the general point that "25% of runners PR" doesn't mean much without extensive additional information.

Why the lengthy discussion?

It is not an accepted IAAF course.

End of discussion.

They had a few major F&*K ups apparently

http://www.justinmarcusdesign.com/cal-international

Wow, that did not read well. I'll withhold further comment.

Justin,

You don't show up to a race and then bitch about what you have to pay for. Didn't your agent work out all those details prior to your trip? You knew what you signed up for.

Runners complain to much and make to many excuses. Slippery push off? If you had run well you would never bring up the slippery push off. You're just looking for things to blame for your failure. Suck it up sally.

I also ran the race. Yes the roads were wet, but I did not experience "slippery push off". Maybe it was my shoes, but I don't think the wet roads were a factor for me.

I live in a low humidity area and I do melt during the summer when it is really humid, but I wouldn't say the humidity effected me that much at CIM. The Dew point was still low, and from what I have read, dew point, not humidity, is what you should be looking at.

I will agree about the confusion with water vs. ultima. The majority of volunteers were shouting water or sports drink as you approached them, but when no one said anything I was at a loss for what to take. Different colored cups would have been a good idea. Other than that, organization was pretty top notch (for non-elites I guess. Although, if they really offered water bottles to 180 runners, maybe I could have had a shot at getting that service). It was awesome having volunteers shouting out your pace at each mile.

With regards to the course, sure it is a huge net downhill, and there is no point arguing whether or not it meets certain set guidelines. However, I will say that the net downhill is misleading. I was expecting the decline to be a bit more gradual, but like "runner at CIM" said there are some major steep downhills followed by some steep climbs. My quads really took a beating, and I paid for it. Some runners may be able to thrive on a course like this, but judging from the number of elites and other runners I passed who were walk/jogging during the last half when I was struggling, I was not the only one who couldn't handle the course.

After my experience on Sunday, when looking for a marathon pr, I think myself and probably many others would be better off looking for a flat course instead of a net downhill.

I ran it too. Anyone who blames the weather for their poor performance is looking for excuses in the wrong place. Humidity was high, but at 50 degrees F humidity is irrelevant. You'll notice the sweat on your body, but the air temp will keep you plenty cool. When calculating heat index, the difference between 0% and 100% humidity at 50 degrees F is only 4 degrees.

As for the fluid stations. I call out "WATER" as I approach and was invariably directed to the end of the tables for it. Only once did I get the Ultima cr@p they were handing out. It sucked, but had no impact on my performance.

CIM is a fast course, but you do have to be prepared for the rollers early on.

Oh, and I missed my goal and ran mid 2:40s. All blame lies with my preparation. Not with the weather.

Darth Trebblehorn wrote:

Justin,

You don't show up to a race and then bitch about what you have to pay for. Didn't your agent work out all those details prior to your trip? You knew what you signed up for.

What do you mean?

I mean flight, meals, or anythything else that involves money.

You knew 100% the deal prior to getting on the plane. You are wrong to complain afterwards. You had the option to say NO DEAL.

I am not blaming the slippery roads at all. Just something I was aware of while running.

It was 96% humidity at the start and the dew point was high. Not sure where you got your facts...

I am quite aware how humidity can affect your HR. The higher HR was due to the body needing to cool itself off. Higher HR, in turn, results in burning through your fuel sources quicker. This is especially true for larger runners like me. (6 ft / 160)

No one to blame but me for poor decisions. Should have backed off the early pacing and let the HR dictate pace.

jyoung wrote:

Darth Trebblehorn wrote:

Justin,

You don't show up to a race and then bitch about what you have to pay for. Didn't your agent work out all those details prior to your trip? You knew what you signed up for.

What do you mean?

I assume that he's referring to this set of comments:

"Provide for Your Elites

If someone doesn’t say it, no one will know it. Elite runners are poor. We don’t run for money. Only a few top U.S. runners making enough to earn a living, the other 98% scrap by. We’re broke. Let me be honest. So when we have to reach into our pocket to pay for a portion of our flight, when we have to pay for our hotel room, for all of our meals, for our transportation to and from the hotel…it’s a major burden on our ability to train and race as professionals. 99.99% of the runners at Cal International enjoy the marathon as a social event – and that’s fine, no problem, that’s great!

Professionals need social runners – and professionals appreciate the work and commitment they put in. The trouble is the elites don’t have any other real income. They do this for a living. It’s not social. It’s professional. I would like to see more races make a more earnest commitment to supporting elite runners – offering more financial incentives to keep training and improving their talents. Every 4 years the public goes gaga over their athletes at the Olympics – but it’s the in-between years that determine who those athletes are – and if they can’t support themselves financially to train in these years, they’ll never make it to the Olympic years. I wish Cal International, next time, would appreciate the level of commitment professional runners make to be at their event, and perhaps provide a little more. Food vouchers would be nice. Food is expensive."

Personally, I think these comments reflect poorly on their author. If a 2:14 marathoner thinks that he deserves more than the race offers, then he can vote -- literally and figuratively -- with his feet. Either show up and run on the agreed terms, or find another race. But to accept an invitation on certain terms, and then publicly complain about those terms, strikes me as exceptionally ungracious. And what exactly was "the level of commitment" that you made "to be at their event"? It sounds to me as though you made a last-minute decision to run this race after other, and presumably more attractive, options didn't pan out. What host would ever choose to invite such a guest to his next event? I sure wouldn't.

I also wonder about the expectations of a 2:14 marathoner who describes himself as a "professional," who "do[es] this for a living," and who "do[esn't] have any other real income." To me, a 2:14 marathoner who has no other real income is simply an unemployed runner begging for table scraps (or "food vouchers," to use your term).

Justin Young never publicly complained about anything. He wrote about his experience in a blog - which he has every right to do. It is not his fault that someone chose to put that blog entry on letsrun.

soxshujaz wrote:

Justin Young never publicly complained about anything. He wrote about his experience in a blog - which he has every right to do. It is not his fault that someone chose to put that blog entry on letsrun.

You have a very narrow conception of the word "publicly." The very first sentence in that set of comments was "If someone doesn't say it, no one will know it." Obviously, the comments were intended to be read by others. I think that the comments reflect badly on their author.

It's a blog!!! He can say whatever he wants to in HIS BLOG! I know that you 80's runners are not as computer literate and up to date with technology as the more modern guys - so I'll excuse your ignorance.

Darth Trebblehorn wrote:

I mean flight, meals, or anythything else that involves money.

You knew 100% the deal prior to getting on the plane. You are wrong to complain afterwards. You had the option to say NO DEAL.

Darth,

First off, you never know exactly what a race is offering - it's never 100% clear, with or without an agent. The flight and hotel expenses are addressed prior to the event, yes - you are correct. The meals or per diem are generally not disclosed beforehand. That's an expense that may or may not be incurred.

I'm not arguing that I was duped or that I was misled into believing I had to pay this or that expense. I'm arguing that more races, such as Cal International, should make a deeper commitment to their top athletes. No technical meeting, mishandled fluid stations, no meal vouchers or per diem for meals or transportation, these are issues I mean when I mention committing to their invited runners.

Even providing food vouchers or setting up meals for athletes is significant. International competitions/marathons always provide this to their athletes. That really does make a difference.

Avocado,

You're funny. You have big talk. What's your real name? I never complained about the terms I was offered. I understood they were only paying a portion of my flight. I understood they could not offer me a hotel room with my wife, even though I offered to pay half the expense. I accepted those terms, and I decided to make the financial commitment.

It is not a matter of whether I personally deserve more than what was offered. Invited athletes - as a whole - deserve a technical meeting. They deserve well-coordinated fluid stations. They deserve proper transportation from the airport, to the hotel, from the hotel to the race, etc. They deserve an organized, professional event. Whether or not I deserve it, whether or not I'm a professional, is largely irrelevant.

Cal International, in my opinion, has some work to do to improve this aspect of their event. The fact that you think I'm an "unemployed runner begging for table scraps" is actually pretty accurate. So are pretty much all American distance runners, save Ritz, Hall, and other top 2%. We're all just getting by, training hard, and hoping to improve as runners.

I contacted Cal International months in advance. I was not 100% certain I would be able to race, even though I had 100% committed. That's the nature of this sport. You never really know if your training will progress - you have to plan in advance. I'm sure you understand this, being a big time athlete.

As far as the level of commitment I made, you talk as if you've never prepared for a major marathon...

What's your name, again?

soxshujaz wrote:

It's a blog!!! He can say whatever he wants to in HIS BLOG! I know that you 80's runners are not as computer literate and up to date with technology as the more modern guys - so I'll excuse your ignorance.

What a dope. No one here has disputed his right to say what he wants to say in his blog (subject, of course, to libel laws and such). But I don't think that one needs a computer science degree from M.I.T. (which, by the way, I actually do have) to appreciate the public nature of such a blog and the comments contained therein.