Runners World Takes It To Ritz: "All the money in the world can't buy a faster marathon"

All this "his race was destroyed by the 20 mile workout" is so ridiculous I don´t even know where to start. When Kjell-Erik Ståhl came 4th in the 1983 WC marathon in 2.10 he had already run 5 marathons that year - all sub 2,15.

My point exactly. He did NOT leave his race in his workout, it's all nonsense. Dathan simply did not have his best race and did not run his race from the beginning. Would he had run a lot faster on that day, maybe not, but it would have been his way, not a way that was dictacted by other runners. Even if he wasn't feeling it on that day due to whatever, he still would have run his way based off of his training, not the training or abilities of others.

That is what I think is another problem. When Alberto went for his 2:08 in 1981, a pack went with him and Louis Kenny (sp?) was out in front. By first avenue only Jose Gomez was left (Rodolfo was 2nd in 80' and 82', a different Gomez). In 1982 the pack was even bigger on 1st Avenue. My point is Salazar ran his race and his pace, the others followed. In those conditions on Sunday, Dathan could have run 1:04 flat conservatively versus the 1:05:19 that the lead pack went through in.

Enjoy!

I still don't think this was a bad performance. As someone else said, every single person that beat him was a superior runner. He was right behind last year's champion...

Another thing is that they just recently changed his form! And he hasn't had time to run at a variety of paces - he was probably only really efficient at 4:50 pace and that's it. No reason he would be able to run well with such crazy splits. Definitely should have tried running his own race.

Yeah I totally agree. Why not run your own race, you can only run as fast as you can on any given day, toying around just makes it riskier. Did he really think he could stick with accelerations late in the race if the start was slow?

This isn't cycling so don't give me the drafting argument. He would have done better if he would have run that "4:51" pace from the gun. I just don't get it. Its not like cycling where pace lining has a real influence and you "have to" stay in the peloton.

Yeah maybe others would have gone with him from the gun but I bet he would have finished higher. Yeah its a championship race but knowing previous years results you could have just tried to time trial a 2:09 and been fairly sure you would be top 3 or 4.

I think it's a mistake to look at Ritz' time and say he ran a bad race. If he wanted a fast time he would not have run NY. In a top marathon, the point is to compete and place as best you can. The time should be irrelevant. Ritz got beat by 7 guys - all of whom at this stage in their careers are better than him. I'm not sure why a different outcome was expected. I'm not saying he had a great race - just look at what happened beginning at mile 16 - he clearly has a lot of work to do to get to that next level. Is Ritz capable of throwing in 3 miles at 4:30 pace and a final mile in sub 4:40?

I said earlier I didn't think it was a bad race but I just really think he could have gotten a better place by running his own race. I have just never been in a race where I wanted to stay with a pack if they were running slower than I was capable of running. The drafting effect at 12 MPH is very small.

I am just curious if any one else has a good reason why 15 guys pack together during the race? I mean cut through the "this is NY" stuff, I understand all of the dynamics and morale stuff but practically speaking it was a stupid choice for some of those runners in that pack, right?

At least half of those guys had a shot at going through half way 2 minutes faster. That would have been a great advantage if everyone else was caught staring at each other.

Ritz's performance in NYC equates pretty well to the 2:10:00 he did in Manhattan. The opening pace in NYC was pretty slow. Gebremariam ran the second half in under 1:03, which is pretty miraculous on that course, which gave him a decent finishing time but heck, only two people broke 2:10:30.

That's because of what you just stated, first half in 1;05.20 (2;10.40 pace) second half in 1;02.54 (2;05.48 pace). How many NYC Mths have had that big a shift in pace? Is there a "record" for the fastest second half?

I have read all of your posts on this subject and I rarely say this on these boards, but you sir are right! You absolutely should coach, are a coach, or simply put know your stuff about running. I have tried to debunk everything you have said, and to be honest, I can't. I am betting you are a college coach or were very decent at running and are about 45-50 years old. Am I right or even remotely close?

After reading many posts about this, yours makes the most sense. Simple but true. Ritzenhein should have just ran his pace and surely as you said, he would have had company. All the while he would have finished faster and placed better unless he was just having an off day. If Alberto Salazar really did this when he ran and he's his coach, why would he not have his own runner do the same? That part I just don't get.

And there is no way his training hurt him or that he left his race in his workouts. I must admit, I disagreed with you at first, until I found out it was about a month before NY. I heard of DeCastella, but didn't know alot about his training until your post prompted me to look him up. You were right.

Thanks for the input, it actually got me thinking the other way and I am so stubborn that I usually don't give in. Spot on dude, spot on.

bravo sir, bravo! wrote:

I have read all of your posts on this subject and I rarely say this on these boards, but you sir are right! You absolutely should coach, are a coach, or simply put know your stuff about running. I have tried to debunk everything you have said, and to be honest, I can't. I am betting you are a college coach or were very decent at running and are about 45-50 years old. Am I right or even remotely close?

........

Wow. This is the worst attempt I ever seen at someone trying to not-so-secretly create other posters who agree with them. please tell me you didn't actually think people would fall for that transparent nonsense, did you?? The last several posts had your signature all over them.

If you are a troll, ha ha, mildly funny. If not, wow, truly, truly pathetic.

bravo sir, bravo! wrote:

I heard of DeCastella, but didn't know alot about his training until your post prompted me to look him up. .

No opinion, just some background on Deek (2:07). He thought his Sunday morning 22 milers were the most important part of his training. Always hilly, probably toughened the legs both ups and downs. Averaged 6:15/mile, ran the last couple of miles a bit quicker. 4-5 weeks before a marathon, he ran a 30 miler. Didn't do any more than this because he didn't want to detract from the rest of his training. Every Wed pm, he ran 19 miles on a flat course at about 5:45/mile. Before a marathon, he ran a couple of short, low-key races (5 km) to sharpen.

if nike really wanted to win, they'd invest in genetic engineering. altered G, altitude tents, and cryosaunas cant give americans what few have: ancestors whose exodus from east africa happened years, not millennia, ago

Few mistakes in reasoning, so I can see from these posts. First, using insufficient evidence to establish arbitrary categories is easy to do, but flawed none the less . Dathan is or is not a "Marathoner" is at this point not knowable with any degree of certainty. Given the levels he has run in training and racing , it does seem plausible and I would not be surprised if he was able to join this class or status. What is known is the fact time is running out and so the probability of success is dependent on promptness to find the needed conditions to make it work.

Naturally tending to look at the history of training of world class marathon runners to induce a generalization about training is good to a point, but as we know, the averages don't explain the specific cases. What I imagine Dathan wants to know is what "things" he should do, but also and as important, what "things" not to do.

The value or practicality of this or that machine or this or that technology Alberto/Nike is attempting to understand and recruit, might not be so ludicrous if the methods applied were not done in what seems a haphazard and reckless manor.

At the end of the day, we could go back and forth discussing the merits of this or that philosophy, training method, theory or tactic, but we would be no closer to understanding what elements are really necessary for Dathan's process of optimization.

What is of greatest value in my opinion are the records and memories that have been formed from years of trial and error. Dathan's ability to understand himself and also his ability to filter out what others say he "aught" to do is what will make things work for him, so I believe.

Good coaching is or should be about encouraging what should be coming from the athlete. Dogma is so anti creative. Running when it comes down to it is good art!!

I suppose it is up to me to tell it like it is.

Alberto Salazar is a goat piss salesman. That is all Nike is--GOAT PISS.

Ritz ran well off the training Hudson had him doing. Salazar reaps the credit for what Brad did with Ritz. Now, all that is over. Under Salazar, Ritz has declined. The guy is now drowning in goat piss.

The answer for Ritz is to fire Salazar and go back to Brad Hudson.

The surest path to mediocrity is a Nike sponsorship.

sixty flat in a tactical race is evidence that he can beat 2:07. but I agree that his best distances are 5k to 12k.

How many people think Ritz left his best race in training?

It seems to me that Ritz could just train for the 10,000m event most of the year and just zip on into a couple of months of marathon training and, voila, he'd pop a good marathon race. Perhaps a simple approach would work well for him? And, along those lines, would Hall also benefit from a similar approach?

I agree with you Tinman.

Bill Rodgers did lots and lots of aerobic running, some occasional speed work (although he called them "rhythm repeats") and lots of racing. Ritz seems to do lots of quality stuff in training, very few races and well, I'm not sure what else. I know which one of those plans i like better.

If Ritz really wants a medal, it's going to have to be in the marathon, because he doesn't have the top end speed to close in 53 in a 5 or 10k on the track. I'd love to see him, or his coach, put it together to give him the best chance possible.

You mean the Africans would have sat and waited, happy to watch Dathan set the pace?

It depends where each athlete was on their super compensation curve (and thus the base of work done prior), to be able to try and comment on respective response/recovery times for workouts near a race.

You really, really need some reading and comprehension lessons. You've got to be a 3:45 marathoner.

He's saying Dathan wouldn't have had to worry about leading irrelevant of what the Africans did. If Dathan had run his race and his pace, the Africans could have went 4:45, but who cares? In reality, Dathan would not have been leading in a single file format at that pace. The Africans and others would have been right next to him or in front of him, if not going faster. Hence, he would have been running a faster pace instead of a slower one which would yield him a faster time and no chance of getting dropped "as easily" on 1st Avenue if the pace had been more honest (but he still wouldn't have won). What part don't you get? The other part, super compensation curve???? You're a flaming idiot!!!!!! Meyer runs a then 10 mile world record and Dathan runs a 20 mile workout further out from his marathon in weeks, and you think Dathan left his race in his workout, but Meyer runs the fastest 10 miles his body has every gone and that's different. WOW!!! Stupidity must be your middle name, if not your first!