The Worst Race Tactics Ever?

here is the money wrote:

On the other hand, the fittest man does not always win. Bekele lost to El G at 5000 meters. I would argue the WR holder and 12:37 man is more fit for the 5k than a 1500 specialist with a 12:50 pr, wouldn't you?

Sure he's more fit for the 5000m if that race is run at world record pace. Bekele lost to El G in a 13:14 race.

However, he lost to Kipchoge and El G a year earlier in a WC race won in 12:52.

So this tells me that for Bekele to beat El G he would have to run near world record pace. Or it might tell us that El G's 12:50 PR was nowhere near what he was capable of had he devoted his time solely to the 5000m.

He was a 1500m specialist who always said he trained like a 10,000m runner.

5000m final, 2000 olympics. The silver medalist could have won that if he wasn't looking behind his shoulder the whole race when Million Wolde slipped by on the side.

wellnow wrote:

I don't think that Coe was nonchalant in the 1980 800, he was just so crappin his pants scared he couldn't think straight.

I agree. Not actually bad tactics. I would define bad tactics as an athlete who obviously uses a certain strategy and loses, when their ability and another strategy would have won (or at least done better).

One memory that springs to mind is Wottle in that heat(semi?)in the Munich 1500. The Head Waiter won the 800 in a classic, then tried the same game and failed to qualify for the 1500 final when he was clearly capable.

Tony Waldrop in high school. An untamed animal.

Dorando wrote:

......The Head Waiter......

This cracked me up, hahahahahaha.....thank you.

I believe this title was passed on to Henry Marsh.

Skuj wrote:

Dorando wrote:

......The Head Waiter......

This cracked me up, hahahahahaha.....thank you.

Yeah, and the "crucial factor" in the first lunar landing was pointing a rocket at the moon and launching it. Thank you for your insightful analysis.

just guessing wrote:

no the crucial element was that keino went out fast and ryun wasn't strong enough to catch him.

Steve Scott was overtrained and in horrible shape in '84. Was about 2 seconds slower over 800 than the year before. Couldn't kick worth shit. Only sort of rebounded after the Olympics, presumably when not training as hard.

Paula Ivan won the 88 Oly 1500 from the front, running away from everybody. She was a Doper's Doper. Geb and Flo-Jo would be proud of her 1988 drug ingestion.

The worst race strategy ever was Naoko Takahashi in the 2003 Tokyo Marathon. She just had to win, even if it was about 2:29, to get on the 2004 Olympic Team. The race was almost a complete set-up to allow her to win, with little "real" opposition to face her. The only "real" top class runner in the race (besides Takahashi) was Elfenesh Alemu of Ethiopia.

Takahashi led from the start on a warm day, and was about a minute ahead at 20km. She went through the half in about 1;09, looking very comfortable. By 30km she was starting to look tired, and by 38km she was passed by Alemu and lost the race, finishing in 2:27, losing by 2 minutes. Would she have won had she paced herself more intelligently? MAYBE, but she also looked very skinny to the point of being anorexic/bulimic.

Mr. Wang wrote:

In all likelihood, Scott got caught up in the "do or die" mentality and, feeling strong after one lap, decided to go for it. This is a form of panic, or choking, and the results bore that out.

To win championship races, you have to ride the razor's edge between serenity and all-out effort. This is difficult when the enormity of the moment makes your insides quake with urgency. Coe and Cram were more confident and prudently dialed up the intensity at an appropriate rate.

The annals of 1500m history are filled with incidences where someone tries, in vain, to bury the field with a ridiculous mid-race surge. More often than not, those moves are the runner's way of saying, "I can't take the pressure anymore... I'm going to end this now," and are made by someone who feels he has little chance of winning.

You are far too intelligent, logical and well stated for this site.

Where have you been, and what in God's name are you doing here???

Here's one:

Jim Peters in the Commonwealth Games 1954

He was the world record holder and came into the stadium with a 3 mile lead. 3 Miles! On a scorching day. He repeatedly collapsed in the last 100 yards and had to be carried off the track having failed to reach the finish line

http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00211/9_211996s.jpg

The marshals who would normally call out a runners lead near the end had left their posts & were watching the Landy - Bannister classic, so Peters had no idea of how far his lead was. He said he would have taken it easy over the last bit if he'd known

So its not really the wrong tactics just the right tactic taken too far. Plus in those days they did not now about dehydration etc

Peters was the first runner to break 2:20 for the marathon and one of the first runners to do 'doubles'

epopians wrote:

Me too! Certainly none of the names Skuj pulled up on that list from 1924 would be in anyone's all time top 10 for 1500m. Coe and Cram certainly would be in anyone's top 10, who has any understanding of the history of the event, and probably in quite a lot of people's top 5 (certainly Coe at least)!

In 1924 those names were most definitely among the all time top 10 of anyone at that time who had any understanding of the history of the event. It was a highly competitive field. If/when Skuj does some homework, instead of relying on others to do it for him, maybe he'll fill you in.

Here is what Steve Scott said at the timehttp://news.google.com/newspapers?id=PokxAAAAIBAJ&sjid=naUFAAAAIBAJ&pg=3541,107892&dq=steve+scott&hl=enAs stated in previous posts, going in Scott wasn't feeling 100%. I think the gentleman below sums up what happened very well.I also remember Scott complaining about the pace in the 1983 World Championship 1500 - if memory serves, the women ran the first lap of their 1500 faster than the men did that year. At least in 1984 Scott helped make it a good, fast race.

just guessing wrote:

no the crucial element was that keino went out fast and ryun wasn't strong enough to catch him.

think fast wrote:

Yeah, and the "crucial factor" in the first lunar landing was pointing a rocket at the moon and launching it. Thank you for your insightful analysis.

Quite a bit more insightful than the Ryun apologist who tries to call Jipcho the "crucial factor". Nothing stopped Ryun from going with Keino and Jipcho. He couldn't do it. He couldn't handle the altitude.

Try watching the actual race sometime. You'll learn something.

Coe barely makes the all time top 10 (tied for 10th with Maree) based on time. He's not in my top 5, or I'd guess many people's.

epopians wrote:

Maguro wrote:

Reality i'm interested in what your point is too, thanks.

Me too! Certainly none of the names Skuj pulled up on that list from 1924 would be in anyone's all time top 10 for 1500m. Coe and Cram certainly would be in anyone's top 10, who has any understanding of the history of the event, and probably in quite a lot of people's top 5 (certainly Coe at least)!

While I don't think Scott's reaction was as bad as Skuj thinks it was; as I doubt he'd have medalled that day anyway, and the pace he injected wasn't anything out of the ordinary; he has made a lot of good points on this thread.

Now, had Scott injected a 55 second lap, then I think it would have been a bad tactic for him. Then again, I think we would have seen the first sub 3:30 had he done so.

You are confusing nonchalance with less ability. Ovett was the superior runner in 1980.

I was a huge Steve Scott fan in the 1980's, and I know all of his strengths and weaknesses physically and mentally as a 1500 meter runner. Here is my take.

Steve Scott was a strength runner but he also had a good kick. He made his living staying just off the pace and driving the last part of the race. In 1983, he finished second in the 1500 meters at the World Championships in Helsinki. He was outkicked by Steve Cram in that race because Cram was smart enough to stay just off the lead in a very slow paced race. Steve Scott got into some jostling in the middle of the race and finally made his way up just behind Cram in 3rd place. Scott had to use his energy to make this move before the bell lap. The pace at the 1000 meter mark was so slow that it was almost a joke. Scott made the mistake of being too far behind the lead at that point. Cram made the first bold move with one lap to go and that won him the race. Scott actually had a pretty good kick that day but he waited too long and Cram got the jump on him. This race unfairly branded Steve Scott as someone who couldn't kick. I disagreed with that sentiment. Maybe he couldn't kick as fast as Cram or Coe in a race that goes out in 2:06 for 800 meters. But Scott was a 3:47 miler who was a good kicker in a decent paced race.

Fast forward one year later just before the 1984 Olympic Games. All the track and field media were building this 1500 meter final into a battle of kickers: Coe, Ovett, and Cram. I have an article that I saved from 1984 that basically said that "Steve Scott can't kick with Coe, Ovett, and Cram. And the only chance Scott had to win was if the race was fast". I agreed with that point and I knew that Steve Scott needed to be patient and make his move between 500-600 meters to go if the race was very slow. He built his entire career as someone who stayed just off the lead and then used his strength to beat people in the end.

The strategy that Scott used in the 1500 meter final was doomed from the start. I think Scott went into a panic mode too early. He employed a stragedy that was foreign to him. I remember sitting there in the Coliseum and saying to myself "Oh nooo". I think he should have stayed patient and try to work the last 600 meters. IMO he would have finished 3rd with that tactic. He was never going to medal by pushing the pace with 1100 meters to go in the race. I think he had a better kick than he gave himself credit for. I believe he read the newspaper reports about Coe, Ovett, and Cram. I believed he went into a panic mode with 1100 meters to go. Steve Scott did not run smart on that day. But he still has my respect as a great American miler.

atlas_ran wrote:

You are confusing nonchalance with less ability. Ovett was the superior runner in 1980.

Not true, Coe got a Silver and a Gold in Moscow, Ovett a Gold and a Bronze.

wellnow wrote:

atlas_ran wrote:

You are confusing nonchalance with less ability. Ovett was the superior runner in 1980.

Not true, Coe got a Silver and a Gold in Moscow, Ovett a Gold and a Bronze.

Quite - Jurgen Straub of all people, actually beat Ovett in the 1500 final.

In fact, it was Straub’s tactics in that race that handed the gold medal to Coe on a plate.