I know he was the one who first brought Adidas to Australia.
As yet another side note, I recall him talking back in 1981 or 82 about how we (the Aussies) would be in trouble if the government did something about limiting exposure to the sun. Looks like he and Cerutty both were years (decades) ahead of their counterparts in nutrition and general health.
Per an article in TFN in 1980, Antwerp was ~1km short when Clayton ran 2;08.Per Marathoning by Bill Rodgers, Fukouka was 200 meters short when Clayton ran 2:09.
ExPatBrit wrote:
I often wondered about Derek Claytons 2:08:33. There's no shortage of debate about whether the course was short, but all the ones I've seen end " well, the roads have been rerouted so we'll never know...." Why not? Surely with Google Maps and a '69 street map of Antwerp I would think it elementary to get a pretty accurate estimate. I'm surprised no-ones done it. Have they?
Per a letter to Runner's World in the early or mid 70s from Track&Field News' European correspondent, Roberto Quincitani (I'm sure I've got his last name misspelled), "Please disregard any rumors that the Antwerp course Derek Clayton ran was short." He went on to explain that there had been another marathon course in Antwerp that had been run for several years and was known to be short but that was a different course than the one Clayton ran which RQ said was definitely accurate.
Well, ARRS says Antwerp was 500 meters short: http://www.arrs.net/MaraRank/ATM_Mara1969.htmNot sure what they base that on but, I think it was a 13.1 mile loop course, so whatever erros there may have been would be compounded twice.Meanwhile, many have come to the defense of the legitimacy of the record, and note that Ron Hill admits there was never a successful remeasurement.
...I won the Commonwealth Championships in Edinburgh in 2:09:28, which I claim was a world record because the attempts to remeasure Derek Clayton's course in Antwerp [Clayton ran 2:08:34 at Antwerp in 1969] were never successfully carried out.
http://racingnews.runnersworld.com/2008/09/a-brief-chat-with-ron-hill.html
...Clayton purportedly beat his own record time in 1969 in Antwerp, recording 2:08:33.6. the figures had a spurious accuracy to them. Doubts about the accuracy of the course have never been conclusively resolved, since the method of measurement employed by the organisers, the average of car odometer readings, is known to be extremely unreliable.
http://www.aimsworldrunning.org/marathon_history.htm
As for Clayton's 2:08:34 (Antwerp 30 May 1969), questions were raised, but it's worth discussing the circumstances, considering the evidence, and reading some other historians' assessments of this event, rather than just dismissing Clayton's time in passing.
Krise & Squires:
"As more years passed with no other athlete even approaching the mark, mutterings surfaced to claim that the course must have been short. The Belgian AAF...demonstrated the ineptitude of sports officials...by not remeasuring the course...one measurement would have laid all the controversy to rest...Because the Antwerp course on which Clayton ran has never again hosted a marathon race, one has no means of comparing Clayton's race with any save those he ran against that day. Second place...Usami ran 2:11:27.8, while third place Jim Adler clocked 2:16:34.4. Their times do not suggest a short course..." (195) emphasis added
Quercetani:
"Almost inevitably there were Doubting Thomases who found it hard to believe in the authenticity of Clayton's mark. There were in fact allegations that the course at Antwerp was under distance, but this was never categorically proven and the mark remained in the books as a best-on-record performance until 1981, when it was finally beaten. emphasis added
Hauman:
"There were rumours that the course was short, and these have persisted to the present day. Unfortunately the course was never remeasured, but various observers have pointed out that Belgian courses were notoriously short. In a 1980 report in Track & Field News it was stated that the heaf of the Belgian Athletics Federation had admitted that marathon courses in Belgium were measured with four cars, with the average measurement taken. When an investigation was conducted into the accuracy of the course, the Belgian federation indicated that no documentation was available...Clayton told T&F News that...they (the Belgian AF) had indicated that the course had been measured by a calibrated wheel attached to acar, both before and after the race. Both times 'there was 6 metres difference...so they assured me it was checked out,' Clayton said in the New Zealand Runner interview. It is a tragedy that such a performance will always be clouded by doubt, but it should be remembered that the race was run at a time when course certification was not as stringent as it is today -- and it is unfair to single out this performance as being on a short course. According to Martin and Gynn (The Marathon Footrace, Performers and Performances), 'the evidence brought forth by the rumor-mongers has not been sufficient to cause the measured distance to be seriously questioned. Race conditions were such that performances recorded by most of the top athletes were comparable to what they had achieved or would achieve in the coming months.'" (70) emphasis added
http://mb.trackandfieldnews.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?t=29925&sid=1ffaab7a84949b932a7a81db17b570f7
About the same size as Solinsky, who many say is too big for the marathon.
As for Clarke's shoes, he was with Adidas. And he said he had special shoes made for him, which were as light as possible, and he thought that was very important to his development...
MarathonMind wrote:
In a 1980 report in Track & Field News it was stated that the head of the Belgian Athletics Federation had admitted that marathon courses in Belgium were measured with four cars, with the average measurement taken.
The calibrated wheels differ from our preferred method of using a wrist watch from the stands, like we used in verifying Chris Solisky's last 100 meters in 12.1 seconds.
I said before that I never spoke directly to clayton, but speaking to numerous experts and people surely in the know, they and clayton were convinced he was capable of running 2:06 or better. Was it Antwerp that he ran 7 or so days after turkey? the turkey race may have been his best ever considering the heat, humidity and toughness of the course. According to Clarke the 3 most impressive races he ever saw were Elliott in rome, Clayton in Antwerp and Deek in Brisbane. He may have amended that recently to include one of Mottram's races, but I do believe he was being more than just a little kind
Ray, I think the Turkey race was about 9-10 days before Antwerp.
I'm betting on ten days.
Got time for another Ron Clarke story (and also Jimmie Hogan and Abebe Bikila)? I hope you enjoy this one as much as we did, when Ron told it to us...
In 1964 in Tokyo, Ron had already run in the 5K and the 10K and was also entered in the Marathon. He was asked if he was trying to emulate Zatopek, who had run all three in a previous Games. Ron said no to that, he just wanted to get out and run. He said you could be locked up a village going "gaga", or you could get out and run, get up at the front, watch the race unfold, and then asked an amazing question...."What real athlete wouldn't want do do that?".... There's a good look inside the mind of the man, eh?
So the race started and Clarke and Jimmie Hogan took it out pretty fast - he told us the split, I can't remember it at the moment, but they ran a fast first 10K. And
although Hogan and Clarke were pushing the pace, Bikila was right there, tucked in behind them apparently.
So Hogan said "let's surge the bastard", so they did. Clarke said they ran pretty fast for a mile or so. And Hogan said, "that was easy". Then a bit further on, Hogan and Clarke still front-running, Ron said he heard the crowd cheering for Bikila. He looked around and Bikila was right there. They hadn't dropped him at all, and Ron said that Bikila was running so easily that they didn't even know he was there, until they heard the crowds cheering him on. Ron said that "Bikila was running so lightly, that you couldn't even hear him striking the ground, it was more like he was just gently stroking it once in a while"...
And then Bikila surged on them, and dropped them by the half-way, although Hogan was trying to chase after him. At about the 20 mile mark, Clarke saw Hogan sitting on the side of the road, so he says he sat down with him for a while....Whether he actually did or not, it makes for a great story. Finally Clarke got to the Olympic Stadium. (Bikila having finished long ago, and down his legendary exercises on the infield within a few seconds of finishing the Olympic Marathon, just to show how fresh he still was). Clarke said he was the only one to finish in the top 10 (he was 9th) of an Olympic Marathon who had to walk in the final lap of the Stadium.
He said he was trying to go in this direction, but his legs kept wanting to go in that direction, and it was all he could do to walk and jog to the finish line...
His description --- "Excrutiating, but a wonderful experience".
Hogan didn't finish, and did you know that Billy Mills also ran the Marathon, and finished about 14th...
That's my Clarkey sorry for today.
Got to keep bumping this thread up, you know...
Great story keep 'em coming, been great to read.
'64 Tokyo
5km Clarke 15:06 Hogan 15:08 Bikila 11 seconds back
10km Clarke 30:14 Hogan , Bikila same time
15Km Clarke, Hogan, Bikila 45:35
20km Bikila 1:00:58 Hogan 5 seconds back Clarke 1:01:39
turnaroundBilika 1:04:28
25Km Bikila 1:16;40 Clarke ( 3rd) 1:18:02
30km Bikila 1:32:50 Hogan 40s back Clarke ( 5th)
35Km bikila 1:49:01 Hogan 1:51;27 Clarke 7th
Hogan retires shortly after 35km
40 km Bikila 2:05:10 3 minute lead
finish Bikila 2;12:11.2
Bikila performing exericses on infield Clarke finishes 9th in 2;20;26.8
source the olympic marathon
Anyone that believes that Clayton's 2;08 was on a course that would be considered the correct length by current standards probably think Cierpinski was able to win Olympic gold for the DDR without participating fully in their state plan, including supplemental means.
Great story rsb. I was there. In addition I have watched the great depiction of Abebe Bikila's amazing performance, as shown on Kon Ichikawa's "Tokyo Olympiad" many times. The splits given us by 48 are the same as those I wrote down in my programme on that day. I show the half way split for the first three at that point to be Abebe 1:04.28, Hogan 1:04.30 and Clarke 1:05.16. Bikila Abebe's performance that day was one of the best marathon runs I have seen. It was a very warm day and the air was not clear. It was not a day to run a marathon. Bikila ran away from the best runners of that era and he thrashed them winning by over four minutes. He ran 2:12.12 breaking the previous world best of 2:13.55.0 set by Basil Heatley in June of 1964. Bikila ran effortlessly and appeared fresh at the end. As stated above he immediately began to exercise both standing up and lying on the grass. When Hogan dropped out he looked completely wasted. He staggered and then sat down on the curb and began begging glass after glass of water from the spectators.
Up until that event Japan had not won a medal in that 1964 Olympic Track and Field Meet. The second runner to enter the stadium was Kokichi Tsuburaya. The crowd went wild! Basil Heatley entered the stadium immediately after Tsuburaya who unfortunately could not match Heatley's kick.
Buddy Edelen, who had run a world best 2:14:28 in 1963, finished 6th in 2:18.13.
Awesome thread guys. The mention of Clarke and Adidas. I believe a lot of the top guys of that era turned up at the factory and shoes were made for them. I saw shoes (spikes)that Adidas built for Bill Baillie (circa 1965). They were based on the Blue Kangaroo skinned Tokyo '64 which (for the time) were very light. But Bill's had a built up sole similar to the Adidas Interval that was around at that time. The shoes were also extremely light and supportive. Bill had Achiles problems and the shoes were perfect for that. He had the shoes for years and years.
When I look at Spikes now for athletes that require a heel lift and support I always think back to those shoes of Bill's.
I believe Ron Clarke had similar shoes built for him.
What's your basis for saying that? Do you know something or is it just an opinion that you settled on? And how does an opinion about one of these topics relate to the other? Seriously, if you have something I'd love to read it.
Keeping the ball rolling here, I've got a question about Clarke for you. Did he ever mention his training partners, especially Tony Cook and Trevor Vincent?
I'm asking because I've read a few comments that he's made about his running really being a hobby and a social thing. In "Ron Clarke Talks Track" he says that Cook and Vincent are lifelong friends and training partners and in "The Unforgiving Minute" he has a chapter called "The World's Fastest Joggers" and says that all he really did was go to the Caulfield raceway after work and run with his mates, Cook and Vincent are mentioned again, and do the Sunday Ferny Creek run that you mention.
But if he was running under 5:00 pace on those runs it's hard to imagine Cook and Vincent, who were very good runners but whose best times were not all that close to Clarke's, cranking out 59:00 twelve mile runs every day.
I actually tracked down Trevor Vincent and asked him about this in an e-mail. He said he'd get back to me but never did and I don't want to nag him.
Cook and Vincent are also mentioned in one of Lydiard's books.
They were supposedly doing crazy mileage at a pedestrian pace.
Clarke increased the speed of his runs as gained fitness. Everything according to Arthur.
Just a quick response for now, as I'm on my way out (20 beach walk down to the Hotel Lounge which has about a 72" screen, and the playoffs are starting in 45 minutes - did I mention that they have cold beer and beautiful waitresses - this is Paradise :).
Anyways yes, Clarkey referred directly to Cook and Vincent as his two training mates when he started up again.
They were the guys he met at Caulfield Race Course and ran with most days...
I have it on the tapes somethere, I check and see if there is more to add later.
Damn the girls and playoff man ! ;) Give us more! Been really enjoying the your contributions. enjoy the day of berr sun , girls , playoffs and surf.