KU Coach-Bob Timmons, coach of Ryun and others-no holds barred article in RW

lease wrote:

what a good guy Ryun is wrote:

Just got done watching my dvd "Jim Ryun, America's greatest miler" (that you can order from "jayhawk").

If that's the DVD I was told about previously:

I was given an email address from which to order it. Tried four times and never, ever got the courtesy of a reply--not even a negative reply.

If "jayhawk" is a different source I would be *delighted* to buy the DVD. I have wanted it for years. Any way you could give me details on how to order?

Well, it looks like I *was* given the wrong source previously, because Jayhawk got in touch with me immediately! Didn't mean to give the impression that it was *Jayhawk* who was nonresponsive previously--who knows, maybe I was just using the wrong email address.

Anyway, I'd enjoy getting the DVD. Just need an address to send the money to...

At least he won when was coaching not getting embarrased at the big 12 like this past inddor season(11th place). don't think that would of ever happen under timmmons watch.

sp coach wrote:

At least he won when was coaching not getting embarrased at the big 12 like this past inddor season(11th place). don't think that would of ever happen under timmmons watch.

Because Kansas does not get the cream of the crop anymore like they did in those days; like their basketball teams do today. They have to compete more for recruits.

Just to clarify...Stan ran the 400...he later ran some very good 800's but not sure he ran that at KU...

RW took an unneeded cheap shot at a very fine man...if I had it to do over I would have gone to KU and rolled the dice under Timmy...I think I would have had a better distance career for running under Timmy...

Lone Star State. wrote:

sp coach wrote:

At least he won when was coaching not getting embarrased at the big 12 like this past inddor season(11th place). don't think that would of ever happen under timmmons watch.

Because Kansas does not get the cream of the crop anymore like they did in those days; like their basketball teams do today. They have to compete more for recruits.

Good point.

Lone Star State. wrote:

Because Kansas does not get the cream of the crop anymore like they did in those days; like their basketball teams do today. They have to compete more for recruits.

In part, we can thank the early start/early finish college calendar for some of this.

Look, it's Kansas. It's possible to get lovely weather in Lawrence in April and May and June (and July). It's also possible to terrible weather in March and April and May, which are now the only months that (most) students get to have outdoor track at the college level.

What was always a bit of an advantage for the warm-weather schools has become more of one, as championships were moved earlier in the spring to accommodate schools' early end dates. (Many conference championships are now held in April, or the very first weekend of May.) Who wants to spend *all* of the outdoor (regular) season running in cold and windy weather?

Not saying KU and other four-season schools *can't* compete for recruits--some northern colleges do a great job--but it's a little harder than it used to be.

....that aside; you gotta admire a guy who would come back from such catastophic injuries that he had and run at all, let alone half way decently, on the regional level.[/quote]

Thank you for the kind words. You were the only one that wrote anything good about me. It was difficult to come back from so many injuries. I never understood why Coach Timmons never mentioned anything about that because he knew what I had been through.

Now, 27 years after the accident, and 14 surgeries, including 4 cervical fusions, I am totally disabled.

I had hoped that the RW story would inspire other accident victims but so little is mentioned what I went through, I don't think that it would inspire anyone. I am writing my autobiography and am hopeful that my book will inspire other victims of accidents.

Again, Thank you for the kind words.

Mike Sharp

KU83 wrote:

I ran with Sharp at KU and I can tell you no one liked him. He was not what one would call a team player.

how can you tell if I was not a team player after only 2 weeks on the team?

I explained in the RW blog that if I drifted back in the pack during practice, timmons would yell at me to move up, I did and then I pissed off the seniors and moved back in the pack, and that went back and fourth every practice.

It was a no win situation for me.

No liked me because??????????

I did nothing to anyone on the team for you to say that.

I knew after 2 weeks that there was no way that I could stay injury free by running 100 miles a week . I was 6'4" and 175 pounds. If that is not being a team player, then that is ok with me. I was thinking about my body and health.

Also, as someone that got hit by a car and flew 90 feet through the air after being struck by the car two years before. The last practice I ran when the 7 tallest had to stand in the bed of the truck while Timmie spoke with Liebert and Manuel in the cab and we went up in the air over every hill and the guys tucked in the bed sitting, had to hold on to our legs to keep us in, that was just to close a memory of the accident for me and I would never go through that again.

It seems that virtually everyone who was actully on the team for more than 2wks disagrees with your perception of reality. Sounds like you were at KU a yr or two before me, too bad I would have enjoyed seeing just what kind of competior you claim to be. Sorry your success in fun runs didn't cary over to college -

Craig Watcke wrote:

It seems that virtually everyone who was actully on the team for more than 2wks disagrees with your perception of reality. Sounds like you were at KU a yr or two before me, too bad I would have enjoyed seeing just what kind of competior you claim to be.

Sorry your success in fun runs didn't cary over to college -

Well, sad to say, most of the top shelf high school talent that Bob Timmons got at KU didn't carry over to college either. Hard to argue with facts. Kansas State did more with less.

One of Timmons's most promising high school recruits was the 880/miler Bryan McElroy, who, I believe, was from NY or NJ. He transferred to Villanova after his freshman year at KU. Anyone know why he left?

Just wanted to say that I got the Jim Ryun DVD. What an outstanding production! Included footage that I had never seen, like of his 880 and mile WRs of 1966. It was great to hear from Timmy (and J.D. Edmiston, Ryun's senior-year HS coach, who was no slouch himself).

Timmy "ruined" Ryun? Yeah, the guy only produced 4+ world records and four of the six (or so) best mile/1500s that had ever been run. Let's be intellectually honest, okay? Elliot (sp?) was similarly dominant for a few years, but left the sport at a much younger age than Ryun and (it could reasonably be argued) had really only begun to tap his talent. The difference? Herb had OG gold, Jim had OG silver.

If Jim had won the OG--if Keino hadn't run the 1500 (he was ill in Mexico), or if the OG had been at sea level--then Ryun *and Timmons* would be considered the greatest ever. Because Ryun took silver, some ignoramuses think that he *and Timmons* were failures.

Wrong on both counts.

The issue is whether Ryun's training in high school and first two years in college had a negative impact on his career from 1968 on. Let's look at the facts. He got mono in the spring of 1968. He dropped out of the 800 meter final at the Olympic Trials in 1968, despite being the world record holder. In 1969, his senior year in college, his outdoor performances were worse than his senior year in high school. He dropped out of the 3 mile in the NCAA championship in 1969, even though KU needed the points to win against San Jose State. He didn't even bother to run the AAU championships that year, when he should have been better than in 1966 and 1967. Then in '71-'72, his performances were disturbingly erratic. Some weeks he had trouble running 4:10, including in London where presumably he wasn't suffering from allergies.

His performances were so erratic that he was relieved to have finished 4th in the Olympic Trials 800 meters in 1972 in 1:45.2. That's rather shocking when you consider that in 1967 he was running 1:44.

Funny you should say that Herb Elliot barely tapped his potential. He was 22 when he won gold and ran his best time. Ryun never improved his best times after the age of 20. The question is whether that has anything to do with his earlier training.

Your point about Ryun in Mexico City is irrelevant. The fact is, he quit improving after 1967 at the age of 20.

Your spiel is irrelvant. Who cares whether he got his prs at age 20, 25 or 30? They weren't running for 'age group' records.

If you look at the average age for PRs for the best milers over the past 30 years, it is close to 25. Ryun was an outlier in terms of PRs. The question is why. And it's relevant to whether his earlier training came at the expsnse of later improvement. You apparently don't get it.

In a perfect world every distance runner would improve a little each year from age 16 to age 28 when they hit their peak and run their pr. HEY! News flash, genius! It seldom happens that way! A little thing called 'life', complete with injuries, motivation, marriage, kids a job and other interests seem to get in the way. Unless YOU can tell me that YOU improved your times every year from age 16 to age 28, than I am branding YOU a burn out and 'could have been', no matter what YOUR excuses are.

Living in the Past wrote:

If you look at the average age for PRs for the best milers over the past 30 years, it is close to 25. Ryun was an outlier in terms of PRs. The question is why. And it's relevant to whether his earlier training came at the expsnse of later improvement. You apparently don't get it.

Sure. In the past thirty years the sport has become professional which has kept people from retiring because they needed to get a job, then found working and full time running to be more than they wanted to do. In the amateur era it was harder to set your life up so that you could run seriously.

Did Cerutty ruin Herb Elliott? Elliott was 22 when he ran his best time and was out of the sport a year later. this is certainly debatable, but aside from finishing one place lower than Elliott did at the Olympics, I'd say Ryun had the better career and Ryun's best Olympics was run at altitiude.

I thought you all would be interested in reading dad's reply to Runner's World. We'll see if they print any of it in the next edition.

Watcke! Great to see you are alive (and I hope well).

"As I read the recent Runner’s World story on Coach Timmons, I was struck by the courage Coach Timmons displayed in allowing the writer to interview him during one of the most vulnerable times in his life. Some who have dementia don’t go out in public let alone allow themselves to be interviewed by someone who clearly had another motive than to record Coach’s outstanding accomplishments. Typical of Timmie, he made himself available to someone who obviously lacks a mature understanding of one man’s gift to the world of track and field. Coach is to be commended for his willingness to be interviewed in his home with Pat by his side.

I lived through many of the years referenced in the Runner’s World article. I recall one summer when I lived with the Timmons family in their Lawrence, KS farmhouse in order to train for the 1964 Olympics. They welcomed me as a member of their family. I treasure the nearly 50 years that I’ve known the Timmons family as a student athlete and now as lifelong friends. Timmie and Pat are grandparents to our children, great grandparents to our grandchildren and Godparents to our son, Ned. We have celebrated many holidays and family events together. Yes, there were those who didn’t “make it” under the Timmon’s program, but the larger number of us did, and became not just better athletes, but more importantly, better human beings.

Cliff Cushman, a KU great, silver medalist at 400 meters in the 1960 Rome Olympics once wrote, “Unless your reach exceeds your grasp, how will you know what you can achieve?” Coach believed in this principle and applied it daily to our workouts. He wanted the best for each of his athletes, and while he wanted them to win in their individual event, he was more concerned about the character and well-being of the athlete.

While the writer attempted to capture the Timmon’s years by allowing athletes to tell their story, he failed to make some very important points. First, he selectively chose the athletes who did not enjoy all the success they’d hoped for in Timmie’s program (with the exception of Steve Heffernan). Where are the quotes from guys like Bill Lundberg, George Mason and others who had great success under the Timmon’s system? A coach, any coach, has a particular philosophy that has given him success. I thought Coach executed his program extremely well. Secondly, an athlete has a choice as to what program he will submit himself to. Simply said, it is the athlete’s choice to remain with a certain program or leave it

I will readily admit that the training loads were challenging, but no one gets to the top of his event without overcoming many obstacles. I was a boy who was cut from my church baseball team who Timmie turned into a world record holder and three-time Olympian. Coach Timmons was in the business of helping each athlete reach his full potential. I know it pained him when someone dropped out of his program. What is not mentioned by the writer is that Timmie anguished over those athletes who didn’t make it.

I submit to the readers of this poorly written article, that there is another side to the story of Coach Timmons. After retirement from KU, Coach gave his time to coach junior high track and volleyball as well as encourage those around him to continue to set goals in life. All those that come in contact with Coach and Pat are never the same- the love, kindness, encouragement and sincerity they exude are attributes I have always strived to emulate and examples I have set before my children and grandchildren. I wish Coach all the best in these latter years of his life. I am saddened the writer of the article does not appreciate Coach Timmons and the sacrifices he and his family made for his athletes. He is and will always be loved and respected by a whole host of former athletes, their families and his fellow coaches throughout the Big 8 (now the Big 12).

Jim Ryun

United States Olympian (1964, ’68 & ’72)"

Drew - Thank you for posting this, your Dad captured what many uf us feel in our hearts.

Best Wishes to you and your family.

Craig