Time for complete overhaul of 'how to train' US elite distance runners: the system is broken

U.S. Population = 305,000,000

World Population = 6,684,000,000

U.S. Population as a % of World Population = 1/22

# of Medals in Distance Events:

1,500M x 6 Medals (M/W)

3,000MSC x 6 Medals (M/W)

5,000M x 6 Medals (M/W)

10,000 x 6 Medals (M/W)

Maratahon 6 Medals (M/W)

__________________________

30 Medals for Men & Women's Distance Events

Given the U.S. % of the World Population we should be winning, on average, ONE medal in the distance events each Olympics. Want to factor in technology, civilization, training advances, etc? Maybe that gets you another medal or two, but how about some realistic expectations? American ethnocentrism knows no bounds, does it?

bronco wrote:

yepyepyep wrote:

When was the last major marathon not won by an east african? What was the the last major distance race of any kind won by someone of European decent?

2004 Olympic Marathon: Baldini

And that is just the men. Heck, a Kenyan male has never won the Olympic marathon.

Just to be a smarty, you can add the 2008 women's Olympic marathon in Tomescu.

no excuses..... wrote:

this disgraceful and embarassing showing by the US, the richest country in the world, with the best training facilities and opportunities to succeed in the world is BROKEN. Time for a completely new system. Any ideas?

I disagree. American runners can and do train any way they please, every way imaginable, as do foreign runners. There is no particular "system". I also disagree that our showing is disgraceful and embarassing. It's an international stage. Different countries emphasize and succeed for a time in different events, which is somewhat cyclic. No country is going to completely dominate indefinitely, which seems to be what you think America should be able to do. Lastly, it's not that important. Certainly it isn't important enough for any showing to be "disgraceful and embarassing". It's just fun and games.

its well known n the competitive and professional scene that rupp uses drugs. A few of the top athletes have even seen him injecting himself.

It seems like everyone is missing the biggest element, and that is interest in running at a young age.

We have access to all the tools we need to become the greatest runners in the world, and have the knowledge to build the best programs to produce the greatest athletes but the one thing Africans have over Americans is running at such a young age.

We need more young kids interested in running!

1. I first want to say that I don't condone training young kids. That will only burn them out and they will not have the drive to become great.

2. We need to instill a sense of purpose for running, a reason for them to get out the door and just run. This can come from many places. It could be just as a means of transport. Tell them if they want to see their friends they can run to their house. No bikes or driving. Also, it comes from aspiring to greater athletes. We need good quality role models. Elite runners doing community work and helping young kids get interested in running. It works for the NFL.

3. Raising awareness and interest in kids, thus having them begin running earlier, does two things: They get their lifetime base mileage started earlier, allowing them to maximize their potential when they're older. It also broadens the field of talent. Many kids may have talent but never realize it because they never get into running. The most talented runner who ever lived could be sitting at home right now eating potato chips and watching TV, having never run.

4. So here is how it breaks down:

more interest = more kids running younger = larger talent field + greater potential for success = more competition among American runners = fastest runners in the world (this loop is continuous)

Those are my not-too-well formulated thoughts, anyway. It's all about involvment in the kids. A simple example is large high schools with a lot of success usually continue to have a lot of success simply because they have more kids to choose from, the running tradition is instilled in all, and there is a lot of competition to be on varsity.

hey wrote:

its well known n the competitive and professional scene that rupp uses drugs. A few of the top athletes have even seen him injecting himself.

Good. That should keep the OP happy.

Interesting post. I think there is more being done than you probably realize. The high school is really coming along well, there is a lot of great, intelligent, progressive development among motivated and educated coaches. It is at the college level where the breakdown is happening most, largely due to the system for getting hired at the programs with the greatest resources and the nature of big time college athletics. I do not think one can argue that there is a great record of individualized progression in programs like Stanford, Oregon, and Arkansas. The money is in the collegiate system, for better or worse that is what in in place and that cannot be rivaled without deep private sector pockets. USATF does not have the money for it, that is for sure. Use the resources available and finesse them in the direction of improvement on the status quo. Wetmore has been doing it, so have several others. The other side of it is this: all you people who like to bitch on this message board about horrible high school coaching, why are you not taking the time to obtain your coaching education and get into coaching at the scholastic level? Even volunteering to coach at the local middle school or starting up a local area USATF or AAU junior program could make a real difference. But no, you would rather waste time and energy that could be used touching the lives and positively guiding the athletic careers of young athletes on dicking around on the internet.

GTF wrote:

The other side of it is this: all you people who like to bitch on this message board about horrible high school coaching, why are you not taking the time to obtain your coaching education and get into coaching at the scholastic level? Even volunteering to coach at the local middle school or starting up a local area USATF or AAU junior program could make a real difference. But no, you would rather waste time and energy that could be used touching the lives and positively guiding the athletic careers of young athletes on dicking around on the internet.

I volunteer coach for a number of youth sports...although my kids are not currently interested in track and field. It's very enjoyable to the point where I coach for teams that don't include my own kids.

As far as coaching within the school system...that can be dicey pending the requirements. Obviously you would need to be available at the end of the school day which can be difficult for 9-5 workers. The school district in which I live also requires anyone who coaches to be an employee of the school district....although not necessarily a teacher.

I think we need to get away from the idea that athletics should be tied to a school. We need a club system. I wonder how many kids we lose because they can't get in a school or afford college. Also that means the coach at the school is obligated to act in the best interest of the school (win conference, etc..) rather than develop the athlete.

Step #1: Buy Jack Daniels Running Formula and burn it. Good now there is one less copy of that floating around telling runners they can be elites on 80 miles a week and VO2 max training.

Step #2: Start the Florida running club back up, but at Altitude with a better climate. They can still be called the Florida track club though, the irony will be funny.

Step #3: Get big groups of guys together running lots of miles at 100% aerobic effort.

Step #4: To save myself time on writing this post and you time reading this post, copy what Ethiopia and Kenya are doing. What they are doing works better than what we are doing, so why not just copy them? We also have to stop looking at what the best athletes are doing this year and look at what they were doing 10 years ago to get to this point.

Sincere kudos to you, I mean that. I just get the sense that not enough of these internet pundits put their action where their mouths are. As I indicated, getting a youth program going with AAU or USATF affiliation could be a way to go if there are too many barriers to scholastic affiliation. The way some of these gripers go on about it, though, they would seem to have enough passion to quit their 9-5 gig and get a teaching certificate to get around that.

Need more pop and spring wrote:

wellnow wrote:

I think you are misinterpreting Lydiard's most important advice.

The other stuff, he was completely wrong about, but this is what people wrongly focus on. Developing Aerobic base fitness is the easy part. Developing power and efficiency in your stride is the hard part.

I know I'm wasting my time trying to explain this to you HRE, but people who really want to learn, might hopefull show an interest in getting away from the same old meaningless aerobic base blather and actually want to learn what really makes the difference.

Let me put it this way. You run an awesome race, you run a lousy race, your aerobic capacity is the same in both races.

WHY?

Because my feet spend more time on the ground than the faster guys.

BINGO!!!! The best athletes, whether sprinters or distance runners, are quick and light on their feet. Few coaches start with how to run and spend their energy on what to run. Absolutely backwards.

EZ10Miler wrote:

I think we need to get away from the idea that athletics should be tied to a school. We need a club system. I wonder how many kids we lose because they can't get in a school or afford college. Also that means the coach at the school is obligated to act in the best interest of the school (win conference, etc..) rather than develop the athlete.

In a perfect world I would be in complete agreement with you. In fact, if you have further thoughts toward this end I would be genuinely interested in seeing them. That stated, this sport is dirt poor with no hope of any reversal of that fortune. College programs are being cut to dump more money into football programs with no record of real success. Without even the meager funding that comes through scholastic or collegiate sources, where would the money come from in the private sector to rival even what the current system affords in terms of resources? The club system in the country is beyond broke, in spite of the best efforts of esteemed entities such as GBTC, Asics Aggies, et alia. Nike, Reebok, and other shoe companies helped to decimate the club system in the '80s by setting up pseudoclubs of their own and cherry-picking talent from local clubs. However, when a club's fate is ultimately determined by a system that has a focus on quarterly profit rather than a group of committed individuals then the club's resources and even very existence will be tenuous. There has been a nice attempt at a come-back with the Elite Development Club system, though USATF has done very little to support it and many of the clubs have seemingly come and gone with the tide and the ones who do succeed (Zap, Hansons, etc.) seemingly do so in spite of USATF's best efforts. Aside from NOP and Dick Brown's EH&PF, I do not see any club looking to take a chance on an athlete who has not first gone through the collegiate system. I do not say that as an indication of something I necessarily agree with, but simply to point out the nature of the culture of the sport in the US.

I see great possibility in working within the current system (scholastic and collegiate) to finesse towards a focus of progressive development over immediate gratification without detracting too much from the latter. Look at what someone like Scott Simmons has been accomplishing wherever he has landed. Also, I do not believe that anyone who truly has great potential is missing out on scholarship availability.

In the 60s, 70s and early 80s, US runners were, as a group, doing more miles than they'd ever done before and were more successful internationally than they'd ever been. come the late 80s and 90s we got into this lower volume "quality" stuff and the bottom fell out. Now we've got guys like Sell and Hall doing the miles again and we're seeing somewhat better performaces.

Of course there's more to it than miles. But I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you've never done really high volume for a good stretch of time because tehre is nothing easy about it. Yes, on a given day running 15 miles in te evening after you've done 7 in the morning might seem easier than doing 15 hard 400s or some sort of gym work. But go back and do that same 7 and 15 day after day, month after month, then come back and tell me how easy it is. I've done both and I know which was harder and that's why I'm very suspicious of these claims that you don't need a lot of miles to run as well as you possibly can. Really high volume. maintained for an extended time is tough and time consuming and people constantly look for ways around it.

Look to the Africans. They run a lot, starting at pretty arly ages. At some point hey add the faster stuff. But when they get to that bit of adding the faster stuff they've generally run thousands more miles than western runners of comparable ages.

I'm always interested in learning stuff but I'd like it to come from a source which has validated their opinion at least to some extent. It's not just your time you're wasting with your postings.

Agreed - get back to basics and send the top coaches to see how /and work with the african champions. Then use their knowledge to motivate and discipline our elites ready for 2012!

Less science and more mental preparation is vital for winners.

I haven't read the entire thread, but I can say that as soon as we get the kids off the Wii, playstaton, computer, cell phone, Iphone, Ipod touch, XBox, etc we'll get back to where we belong.

I've coached athletes from the World Record level down to age groupers just starting out. I have never had a better group than the high school team I started way back in 1976. A team of girls, the eldest who was 15. All of them (25) under 6 for the mile, 2 of them under 5:00. Something like 10 of them under 5:20. Minimal training. The secret? It was in Australia where sport was the norm, TV's had 3 channels, and kids pretty much did everything outside.

High school distance running is at an all-time high, with more kids participating then ever before. I also believe there is a shift that's occurring, where h.s. athletes are running more miles and are being trained better. Look at the depth that's started up again in the high school distance events. The collegiate level is starting to reep the rewards of that process and are helping our athletes improve greatly.

I think that perhaps why we aren't doing as well internationally is the lack of development post-collegiately. Nearly every Ethiopian and Kenyan runner runs in a camp-like setting year round. The best high school athletes go to these camps after they graduate and live there for years training and racing.

While we've seen great strides made in bringing together the best in the country in recent years (i.e. Hansons, Team USA, OTC, etc.), the support for our "second tier" athletes is awful. It seems as though the top ten seniors every year take a stab at running professionally, while the 11-30 athletes are left standing around pondering whether to go at it alone or just call it a career.

Right now I can count about ten post-collegiate training groups in the U.S. We need 25+ groups (with ten athletes) providing resources (coaching, stipends, medical, etc) to simply mimic the other major sports that the U.S. excels in. Furthermore, these groups need to not be funded by running companies (Nike, adidas, NYRR). We also need many of these groups to focus on the 800, mile and steeplechase. We dominate in the 400m and shorter sprints every year, yet we can't dominate in the 800 or mile? How many great coaches are out there for the middle distance events? Develop 30+ milers every year with proper resources and eventually that will pay off with more 5k and 10k type runners as well, as these athletes get stronger, more explosive and develop their mechanics enough to handle the 5k and 10k.

Strong, year-round training groups, with good coaching, decent resources, and a focus on building strength AND speed is what every level of American distance running needs to focus on.

Good idea to create dedicated distance training camps for potential elites to prove their worth and train with top dedicated coaches and live with other like minded runners who just train, eat and sleep together with the commom aim of being champions. They need nuturing and encouragement along with excellent facilities. Bit like a mixture of Torres training camp, hansons-brooks and zap fitness!

the British system used to put out a high percentage of good distance runners (based on total population) in the 60s thru the 80s; but they have gone down the dumper too in the past 10-15 years. And they had the club system, not the university system that was blamed for burnout in the US.