Expensive races

Bandits do strange things to rationalize stealing and deceit. The Don M story is a fine example of this.

I don't know of any races where police pull bandits out but know Immigration officials nail Detroit Marathon bandits. One simple way of dealing/shaming bandits would be for a race official to ask everybody at the start to look around and point out any bandits they see. Then have the race official go over and politely ask the bandit(s) to go somewhere else.

GBF wrote:

I do believe you're the one demonstrating a lack of intellect, maturity, and experience in running, Keith.

Clearly the costs of races have increased faster than the pace of inflation. Would you agree with that, Keith? Do you think that the races of 10 years (or more) ago did not have the things you're referring to?

Yup, another idiot. Has the cost of racing increased faster than inflation, but the point you're missing is the races of 10 eyars ago or DIDN'T have the expenses today's races have. Anyone with real RD experience doing anything but a trail race in some park would know that. You found some scape goat, but didn't put any thought into the real cause.

Yup, I'm a member of the Twin City Track Club, and if you didn't anything other that a cursory look you'd know I've been a member, and board member, for a long time. You'd also know the club has been around a long time too. We do 12-16 races a year so we know a think or two about directing, timing, etc, that you apparently do not.

We do have free, low key races. On a track. We used to have free cross country races at Wake Forest, but Wake now wants us to have event insurance to use the grounds. We used to be able to do road races and have free police support. That's gone too. While for club owned races we don't have to pay for timing (we charge $500) we do have to raise enough money to pay for the timing equipment. We just replaced a clock that cost us $2500. Time machines, $900 each, smart people use two. Of course you have to pay for chutes, coolers, etc, somehow.

I get a kick out of all the idiots that say "ya, get rid of the shirts and the reaces could be free" or "give me a discount for no shirt". Sounds like a good idea. We tried it. Had about 10 people interested out of 500. In contrast a recent event we did ran out of shirts for race day people and you should have heard the pissing and moaning, and it wasn't from those "Gallowalkers" you love to abuse.

So you can take your "waddle on" demeanor and try it on on someone that doesn't know any better, maybe they'll buy it.

Keith, clubs all across the country put on low cost races. GBF and I just cited examples we are personally involved in. A running club in my area puts on 10 races a year (complete with police protection, insurance, timing, ect.) that are free for members and $5 for non-members. They're bare bones affairs that offer the essentials of a good race and not much else.

Don't claim it can't be done. Waddle on, indeed.

I'm sure the 10 people that come to those events have a real good time.

If you're putting on a real road race, I call bullshit. Either those events are losing money and being subsidized by something else, or you're getting services for free that other pay for.

I go to an event in Glenwood, MN every year. Cheap entry fee, no clocks, simple tape for time. Insurance comes from the service group that puts it on (Rotary), police that are used are covered by the city, but most of the road isn't monitored. Buses for the point to point start come from the school, and the drivers are volunteers. They get enough shirts at a time for a few years so it doesn't cost them much. Great race, but I'd never to be able to do anything close in a city with more than 2000 people.

Now you guys are claiming that Galloway is out there jacking up road race fees for bands, etc. If you're going to have a road race that has any level of participation, (something more that a couple nutcases) you have to have real insurance, real police, and yes, some amenities (shirts, food, etc). The race shirts were around LONG before the Penguin and Gallowalking, so don't give me that s**t about it being their idea. In any case, I know for a fact I could count on two hands the folks that don't want them.

If you're going to close off a road, you have to pay for it, unless you live in one of those rare communities who doesn't have a budget crisis. So don't give me that crap, I put together the race budgets and I see races down the tubes each year because they lose money and it's not bands, shirts, awards, and food that causing it.

Our club could put on more of it own races which would be cheaper for participants, but apparently too many people are standing around bitching and not enough volunteering to put on events. You know who IS working those finish lines? Those folks you jerks love to put down. If it weren't for them you wouldn't have the races to do have. In fact, when John Bingham was in town years ago he volunteered to park cars and pulled tags in the chute. Not because he had to, but because he's an honest, hard working person, unlike some of the dorks that bitch about races.

So if you guys don't like the race fee. STAY HOME. You're obviously going to be more trouble that you're worth anyway. Get your ten friends together that carp all the time and put on your own race in the back woods with the banjo pickers. You'll get a great rate. The folks putting on a real race aren't going to miss you.

Yeah, it's all B.S. GBF and I just made it all up. You've shown us that it's impossible to put on races without pandering to the Galloway crowd. Sorry for our mistake, and for making up those races we've run.

Viva Galloway! Viva Penguin!

GP wrote:

Yeah, it's all B.S. GBF and I just made it all up. You've shown us that it's impossible to put on races without pandering to the Galloway crowd. Sorry for our mistake, and for making up those races we've run.

Races you've run, not DIRECTED. Certainly shows my past points were right on the money. You haven't the foggiest idea what you're talking about.

You say the $0 race has clocks, insurance, police. REALLY? You're either saying those are free, or someone else paid for them and you're just a freeloader. You can't be so much of an idiot to think they materialized out of thin air. (OK, maybe I'm wrong on that point)

Bingham and Galloway have about as much to do with increased race fees as Monica Lewinsky does with the price of gas (depending on pay at the pump, or in your case, self service).

If you REALLY took more than 30 seconds to exersize that tiny little brain of your's you could do some math. $1000 police, $500 insurance, $500 timing. $5 tshirt. 100 people = $25 a head. 200 people = $15 a head. 500 people = $9 a head. Now tell me again how appealing to the back of the pack crowd is what's driving up race costs. Tell me how getting rid of the tshirt and only appealing to that first 100 and going to make it cheaper for each individual. I look forward to your mathmematical wizardry.

skylon wrote:

Yesterday, here in Morris County, NJ, was the Great Swamp 5K Run 5K & 15K. Granted, the 15K race is the more competitive of the two races, but in the 5K there were 414 finishers, with the first 207 at or "faster" than 29:43, and the other 207 slower than 29:43. 15 years ago, there MIGHT have been 20 or thirty, tops, finishers slower than 29:43...now, it's half the field. Scary.

Great Swamp had some large groups, like Girls on the Run, trying to get what would otherwise be sedentary people out and moving. On the plus side though, $14 if you prereg and are a USATF member, CHEAP! You will have a hard time finding a better deal in NJ. In any event, I don't mind walkers being on the course, so long as they don't line up at the front. The US has a big problem with obesity and diabetes, so if it helps them get some exercise, I say its a good thing. The problem, I suppose, is one of disposable income. Runners are cheap bastards, and since they race alot, price increases have a larger impact. The Gallowonkers are mostly yuppies, and don't care if they drop $25 for a 5K.

On the topic of race fees, USATF-NJ is a good model, based on collective bargaining. In NJ, you can get $2 off prereg if you are a member, so if you do a lot of races you can perhaps average $15 or $16 per race (membership is $20, but you'd probably join it anyway). Not a huge discount, but it helps. I think its reasonable. Having access to the finances of a few races in NJ, I think it would be hard to put on a road race for less than $15. It varies a lot between races, but average costs for a 200 person race might be: access/park fees ($1/head), police fees ($1-2/head), porta johns ($2/head), t-shirts ($5/head, includes shirts for volunteers), and refreshments and miscellany ($2/head), trophies - AG awards - prizes ($2/head), scoring ($1/head), advertisement and sactioning ($1/head). Most have some form of sponsorship, like donated food, possibly cash. Races too usually benefit some charity, so they take a chunk, and some money may go to the club or oranization which is rounding up the volunteers. Getting up to $15/per fast.

There are a few regular low budget options in Jersey (www.runnersmecca.com), which save because they are trail runs or X-Country, and don't have to pay police or access fees, and they don't give out shirts.

Unfortunately, I don't think there are enough serious runners in Jersey (and perhaps in other areas) to really sustain all of the races by themselves. We're not in the running boom of the 70's or 80's, and races need to cater to the middle of the pack to be successful. And the middle-packers want a smorgasboard at the end (actually so do I), a nice t-shirt, don't like crapping in the woods, and want AG hardware 3 deep.

I never said the races were totally free. They're free to members, who pay annual membership fees. Part of these fees support the races. Non-members are charged $5. If you think I'm an idiot, that's your right. But don't twist my words to make your point.

I've never held the title "race director." However, I have and will continue to volunteer and support races put on by my and other clubs. If that makes my points invalid to you, that's fine. You lost some credibility with me when your first post included such compelling arguements as being unable to "measure my dick." Classy. I'm done with you. If others would like to discuss this, I'll do so.

Guest wrote:Unfortunately, I don't think there are enough serious runners in Jersey (and perhaps in other areas) to really sustain all of the races by themselves. We're not in the running boom of the 70's or 80's, and races need to cater to the middle of the pack to be successful. And the middle-packers want a smorgasboard at the end (actually so do I), a nice t-shirt, don't like crapping in the woods, and want AG hardware 3 deep.

That, and if you want sponsorship you need numbers. Sponsors aren't giving money for kicks, they want exposure. No numbers, no sponsors, more costs born by the runner.

AG awards? Mid packers and Gallowalkers don't give a rip about them because they don't get them. In any case unless there's prize money it's a trivial portion of the cost.

Crapping in the woods is a sure way to have a one year event. The start of the Covered Bridges Half was moved because the mayor's house was there and someone availed themselves of the bushes. A guy did a 10K at a local park/gold course and didn't arrange for port-a-jons or rest rooms at the start to save money. Needless to say he got in deep s**t due to the inappropriate use of the golf course. With no advertising he got all of 35 people there, and without sponsors money he would have lost his shirt, of course the next year there were no sponsors, and no race.

GP wrote:I've never held the title "race director." However, I have and will continue to volunteer and support races put on by my and other clubs. If that makes my points invalid to you, that's fine. You lost some credibility with me when your first post included such compelling arguements as being unable to "measure my dick." Classy. I'm done with you. If others would like to discuss this, I'll do so.

Let me get this straight, you and your butt-buddy GBF are more than willing to make snide and immature remarks about folks like Galloway and Bingham who aren't around to talk back, but when someone comes back at you with the same attitude you suddenly want to be treated with class? What goes around comes around boy, deal with it or don't open the door in the first place. Your comments about them are just more examples of spouting off about things you know nothing about. Don't run away crying when someone calls you on it.

I don't think anyone who dismisses people who race in small events as "nutcases" is particularly classy, comments about anatomical measurements aside.

I'd much rather run a race with 50 entrants than one with 5,000. It's less hassle, less expense, and you can accelerate when you want to without having to pick your away around a half dozen people.

Go to Fresh Pond in Cambridge, Ma. any Saturday morning and you can race for free. You don't "get" anything but a time and place, but that's what a race is.

HRE wrote:

I don't think anyone who dismisses people who race in small events as "nutcases" is particularly classy, comments about anatomical measurements aside.

I'd much rather run a race with 50 entrants than one with 5,000. It's less hassle, less expense, and you can accelerate when you want to without having to pick your away around a half dozen people.

Go to Fresh Pond in Cambridge, Ma. any Saturday morning and you can race for free. You don't "get" anything but a time and place, but that's what a race is.

Been to Fresh Pond and it's great. But, if you're content to race the same loop every weekend I wouldn't necessary consider you the norm. Our club does all comers meets in the spring that are timed, etc, too. I simply don't demand that all races be done to the exclusion of overall participation because I feel it's inconvenient or costs too much. If I did I'd be a nutcase.

You also can't compare Fresh Pond, where you don't need police, permits, and since it's not truly "official", insurance, to real road races that the bulk of this thread is bitching about. You have no costs and a club that subsidizes the equipment. Great deal for sure, but comparing it to anything other than an all comers meet on a 2.5 mile track isn't really appropriate. It would be nice if more facilities like it were available across the country, but until that happens those of us putting on races will have to pay to use the roads, and charge appropriately.

It's a great myth that road races are big money making machines. I have folks come to me thinking they're going to build new offices with the proceeds. They see the local Race for the Cure pulling in $500,000 and get all starry eyed. The don't know many road races lose money the first year and the money is made from donations and sponsors, not entry fees. So if you want to pick on a event that doesn't do anything for running and isn't really a race, pick on RFTC which doesn't even time most of their events anymore, not Galloway and Bingham.

The sport of running is not, and never has been, dependent on the masses

Damnit, didn't finish typing.

The sport of running is not, and never has been, dependent on the masses. There were races before Gallowalkers and the Penguin, and if these disappeared, there would still be races. If you want to make a profit on races, you probably have no choice but to sell out to these.

Racing -- real racing -- has always been a fringe sport. Don't fool yourself into believing that it isn't just because thousands of people line up to "do" a marathon on 20 or 30 mpw training.

[quote]Keith Stone wrote:

[quote]HRE wrote:

Been to Fresh Pond and it's great. But, if you're content to race the same loop every weekend I wouldn't necessary consider you the norm. Our club does all comers meets in the spring that are timed, etc, too. I simply don't demand that all races be done to the exclusion of overall participation because I feel it's inconvenient or costs too much. If I did I'd be a nutcase.

You also can't compare Fresh Pond, where you don't need police, permits, and since it's not truly "official", insurance, to real road races that the bulk of this thread is bitching about. You have no costs and a club that subsidizes the equipment. Great deal for sure, but comparing it to anything other than an all comers meet on a 2.5 mile track isn't really appropriate. It would be nice if more facilities like it were available across the country, but until that happens those of us putting on races will have to pay to use the roads, and charge appropriately.

First of all, running the same loop all the time is similar to track racing. Not much variety there, but there is an ongoing chance to measure your progress or lack thereof. That's the essence of the sport. If you need different scenery or some other sorts of "entertainment" while you race you've strayed from what the sport is about.

And I think that's the basis of the complaint here. Many who want a race and nothing more know that a race will attract a fairly small crowd of serious performers; perhaps small enough that police officers and sophisticated timing systems will not be necessary. But the expansion of "races" to attract those who won't come without some sort of entertainment necessitates higher costs and higher entry fees.

I've always been uneasy about the sport's increasing reliance on sponsors. It's fine as long as sponsors see the sport as growing and a desirable place to attach their name. But if that perception changes, a major race can become a defunct race very quickly. Look at the Pittsburgh Marathon. Great event. Attracted heaps of attention over the years, but when UPMC lost interest the race died immediately. Now contrast that to races like the Western Hemisphere Marathon and the Washington's Birthday Marathon. Never big media stars, but still around. And entering those races doesn't cost nearly what a race like Pittsburgh did.

True, preferring races like Fresh Pond or the WBM may locate you outside the norm, but I think the point here is that the sport has changed so that those of us who are focused on racing and racing alone are finding ourselves outside the norm.

Every week of the summer at Waveny Park in New Caanan, CT there is a cross-country type race that costs $2 to enter. Every week it's a different style of race (predict your time, 2 man 6 mile relay, ekiden, 5k race, etc). It's great, it's fun, you get a time, a place, and have some nice conversation with the 50 people that show up, and win a t-shirt if you place. oh yeah, and there is a clock at the finish.

Clearly cheap races can still be accomplished, especially if they are shorter onces. If the clubCT people have been doing it 30 years in a ridiculously affluent area (fairfield county, CT) I think it's reasonable to expect to pay less than $10 for your standard turkey trot/fun run.

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/clubct/Races/SCXC.html

Bump

Variety is just not for those that want "entertainment" but a challange of something different, such as terraine or distance. I did a 100K on a 400M dirt track once. I know more than a few "serious" runners who thought that was insane. If you're going to race on something besides a closed circuit like Fresh Pond, you're going to need support to keep it safe unless you're going to expect racers to stop at lights and yield to traffic. In some juristictions holding an organized event on public streets without a permit is a crime and the minute you put up a clock and time people it's ahrd not to call it organized.

I too am uneasy with the *need* for sponsorship. I don't think corporate sponsors are bad, since the right sponsor can attract good publicity which I feel helps the sport. Also, nothing gives some incentive to a young racer like a shot at having their name in the paper. That vanity item even Fresh Pond promotes as an attraction. A good sponsor brings participation, and the press will follow with the right company behind it. Who knows, some parent may drag their kid out of bed on a Saturday morning who'll turn out to be the next big thing. It happened with Ritz.

We also have to recognize that that a few people getting together to race was *never* the norm. Races have always had a populist bent to them. If you think back to the 70's and the big Pepsi Challenge 10K's, the Grape Crush Rushes, and the Strohs Centennial Celebrations, lots of them had amentities like beer afterwards and they had shirts and sometimes even bands. They didn't have big fees because no one worried about being sued, the sponsor paid for the amenities and the advertising, and they tied into city festivals that provided police protection for free.

The Pepsi Challenge Series, which the Glenwood race I mentioned earlier was one of the originals, gave out tens of thousands of shirts (Glenwood got 5000, enough for 10 years of races) banners, and did a national ad campaign. Strohs did a similar thing around the centennial. Coors, Miller, etc, all had their various series during the last "boom". Plenty of "serious" runners competed in them.

Today everything has to have a return on investment, can't inconvenience anyone, needs some reason to exist, etc. I've had events nearly shut down because people complain to the city about not wanting to take alternate route. God forbid we'd ask to extend a greenway into a "nice" neighborhood, because that will attract the "wrong" element.

If runners like the ones on this board excerted half the energy they spend carping about Bingham and Galloway and who shouldn't be allowed to run road races and spent that time talking to city officials, employers, schools, etc, about why running is a good sport *FOR EVERYONE* we'll start getting more places like Fresh Pond to have the events you desire.

Keith, after calming down somewhat, you sound like a fairly well-reasoned individual. But, you have been brainwashed over time by Galloway and Co., that is for sure.

The way you now view a race is an illustration of this. You have repeatedly said something to the effect that a 150 person race is a lesser race than a race of a 1000. How do you come to this conclusion?

Ideally, the best case would be a race of a 1000 that views a race in the same manner that most of those attending a small race would have. However, you seem bent against the possibility of that ever happening. Clearly, though, the focus for larger races is becoming less and less on the racing.

A little variety is fine, but a large percentage of races these days are the ones you?re speaking of. If $2-$5 dollar races can be done (and yes I am a ?race director?), then it is possible to have races in the middle ground as well. Maybe it wouldn?t have all the things that you like, but I think that?s a good thing.

Your last point almost has merit, except you don?t know the effort that I DO spend to promote the sport. I DO spend more than half the time and energy with my fervent belief that running is a good sport for EVERYONE. In fact, if you knew me outside this board, you?d know that Galloway is someone that I never spend a second moment thinking about.

While I am absolutely all for increased participation in the sport, I do not think people need to be lied to in order for it to appear attractive. I also think that they could actually have a better experience by not receiving a water-down version that is being sold for profit. So, yes, because Galloway blatantly does this, and because I do care for the betterment of the sport, I have repeatedly said that Galloway sucks when he does this. I take it that you think he has been a great leader for the sport, lies and all?

Since you brought it up does everyone in the Winston-Salem Track Club use their measuring devices in the way you suggested that GP use his? Also, I am not sure of the logic used when you called GP dickless and then proceeded to say that he probably wouldn?t know how to measure his own. Well, duh. If GP is female (or has been castrated), then what would he have to measure?