The Amazing Pat Porter

Astute observation here, pay attention ---> Mamede was a fast runner, Virgin was a racer. If anyone needs an explanation, then you wouldn't understand.

B00ger wrote:

Astute observation here, pay attention ---> Mamede was a fast runner, Virgin was a racer. If anyone needs an explanation, then you wouldn't understand.

great point. i watched mamade run out of the olympic stadium in 1984 with 5000 meters left to run in the 10,000. stunning absence of composure.

i know pat although it has been a couple years since we last communicated. i value his friendship. when i spent a day in alamosa 20 odd years ago he , on short notice, was kind enough to give me shelter saving me money i could not spare for housing. i ran a morning run with him, about 4.5 miles at 5:40 pace. we then had breakfast. shortly after he hit the weight room and did plyometrics. after a few hours of recovery he joined the group for the afternoon workout of 16 (?) x 400 at 59- 61 with 60 seconds recovery. it was an interesting insight of a great runner's day and his relationship with coach vigil and the Adams State runners.

pat had no secrets, he took no shortcut. he worked extremely hard, had exceptional focus and great guidance. i enjoyed that era of US running. we had some very good people running then.

Avocados Number, you're chasing your tail armed with classic Letsrun Circular Logic.

My statement that Virgin was the fastest runner in the field in 1981 is backed with irrefutable empirical evidence. He was faster - end of story. Additionally Virgin had beaten both Mamede and Kedir heads up. END OF STORY. Wishing for a fantasy result that didn't and won't ever happen, by arguing with classic Letsrun Circular Logic - presenting your premise as proof that your premise is true - is silly.

Virgin was the dominant runner in 1980 and 1981. You can't change that.

Virgin had clearly demonstrated his mastery over both Kedir and Mamede.

1980 World cross

1 37:01 Craig Virgin (1955.08.02) 24.220 USA

2 37:02 Hans-Jürgen Orthmann (1954.02.05) 26.033 FRG

3 37:05 Nick Rose (1951.12.30) 28.070 ENG

4 37:11 Léon Schots (1952.06.11) 27.272 BEL

5 37:20 John Robson (1957.01.31) 23.038 SCO

6 37:21 Aleksandr Antipov (1955.03.09) 25.000 URS

7 37:21 Leonid Moseyev (1952.10.21) 27.140 URS

8 37:21 Antonio Prieto (1958.01.11) 22.058 ESP

9 37:23 Steve Jones (1955.08.04) 24.218 WAL

10 37:25 Bernie Ford (1952.08.03) 27.219 ENG

11 37:27 Karel Lismont (1949.03.08) 31.001 BEL

12 37:28 Daniel Dillon (1957.06.25) 22.258 USA

13 37:31 El Hachami Abdenouz (1956.07.01) 23.252 ALG

14 37:33 Barry Smith (1953.04.16) 26.328 ENG

15 37:39 Thierry Watrice (1957.01.23) 23.046 FRA

16 37:42 Fernando Mamede (1951.11.01) 28.129 POR

17 37:44 Steve Kenyon (1951.09.16) 28.175 ENG

18 37:44 John Treacy (1957.06.04) 22.279 IRL

19 37:47 Nick Lees (1958.01.23) 22.046 ENG

20 37:48 Klaas Lok (1955.01.12) 25.057 NED

21 37:49 Alex Hagelsteens (1956.07.15) 23.238 BEL

22 37:51 José Luis Gonzalez (1957.12.08) 22.092 ESP

23 37:53 Kenneth Martin (1958.09.10) 21.181 USA

24 37:54 Dominique Coux (1950.01.06) 30.063 FRA

25 37:54 Alex Gonzalez (1951.03.16) 28.359 FRA

1980 World 10k list

1 Craig Virgin USA 27.29.16 1 Paris Jul 17

2 Henry Rono KEN 27.31.68 1 Melbourne Feb 6

3 Fernando Mamede POR 27.37.88 2 Paris Jul 17

4 Miruts Yifter ETH 27.42.69 1 Moscow Jul 27

5 Toshihiko Seko JPN 27.43.44 1 Stockholm Jul 7

6 Kaarlo Maaninka FIN 27.44.28 2 Moscow Jul 27

7 Aleksandr Antipov URS 27.44.58 2 Stockholm Jul 7

8 Mohamed Kedir ETH 27.44.64 3 Moscow Jul 27

9 Tolossa Kotu ETH 27.46.47 4 Moscow Jul 27

10 Bill Scott AUS 27.46.71 2 Melbourne Feb 6

11 Kunimitsu Itoh JPN 27.47.35 3 Stockholm Jul 07

12 Gerard Tebroke NED 27.48.33 4 Stockholm Jul 07

13 Hideki Kita JPN 27.48.59 5 Stockholm Jul 07

14 John Treacy IRL 27.48.7 1 Brussels Aug 22

15 Alberto Salazar USA 27.49.3 2 Brussels Aug 22

16 Lasse Viren FIN 27.50.46 5 Moscow Jul 27

17 Alex Hagelsteens BEL 27.50.6 3 Brussels Aug 22

18 Werner Schildhauer GDR 27.53.51 1 Potsdam May 31

19 Stephen Austin AUS 27.54.3 1 Melbourne Dec 18

20 Enn Sellik URS 27.55.41 6 Stockholm Jul 07

21 Tekle Fitinsa ETH 27.57.7 4 Moscow Jun 12

22 Bill McChesney USA 27.58.5 3 Paris Jul 17

23 Martti Vainio FIN 28.00.64 1 Helsinki Jul 09

24 Matthews Batswadi RSA 28.00.72 1 Port Elizabeth Apr 11

25 Hansjörg Kunze GDR 28.00.73 2 Potsdam May 31

------------

1981 World Cross

1 35:05 Craig Virgin (1955.08.02) 25.238 USA

2 35:07 Mohammed Kedir (1953.09.06) 27.203 ETH

3 35:09 Fernando Mamede (1951.11.01) 29.147 POR

4 35:13 Julian Goater (1953.01.12) 28.075 ENG

5 35:18 Antonio Prieto (1958.01.11) 23.076 ESP

6 35:20 Rob de Castella (1957.02.27) 24.029 AUS

7 35:22 Girma Berhanu (1960.07.19) 20.252 ETH

8 35:23 Thom Hunt (1958.03.17) 23.011 USA

9 35:24 Alex Hagelsteens (1956.07.15) 24.256 BEL

10 35:26 Pierre Levisse (1952.02.21) 29.035 FRA

11 35:30 Rod Dixon (1950.07.13) 30.258 NZL

12 35:34 El Hachami Abdenouz (1956.07.01) 24.270 ALG

13 35:39 Dereje Nedi (1954.01.13) 27.074 ETH

14 35:40 Kebede Balcha (1951.09.07) 29.202 ETH

15 35:42 Miruts Yifter (1944.05.15) 36.317 ETH

16 35:42 Martti Vainio (1950.12.30) 30.088 FIN

17 35:42 Mark Nenow (1957.11.16) 23.132 USA

18 35:42 Bill Donakowski (1956.06.21) 24.280 USA

19 35:42 Bruce Bickford (1957.03.12) 24.016 USA

20 35:46 Roger de Vogel (1955.09.22) 25.187 BEL

1981 World 10k list (Virgin ran Boston Marathon, then hit the road scene)

1 Fernando Mamede POR 27.27.7 1 Lisboa May 10

2 Werner Schildhauer GDR 27.38.43 1 Rome Sep 4

3 Mohamed Kedir ETH 27.39.44 2 Rome Sep 4

4 Alberto Salazar USA 27.40.69 3 Rome Sep 4

5 Henry Rono KEN 27.40.78 1 Brussels Aug 28

6 Venanzio Ortis ITA 27.42.70 4 Rome Sep 4

7 Geoff Smith GBR 27.43.76 1 Dresden Jun 13

8 Martti Vainio FIN 27.45.50 1 Oslo Jul 11

9 Bill McChesney USA 27.47.25 2 Oslo Jul 11

10 Julian Goater GBR 27.47.54 2 Brussels Aug 28

11 Carlos Lopes POR 27.47.8 2 Lisboa May 30

12 Suleiman Nyambui TAN 27.51.73 1 Stockholm Jul 08

13 Toshihiko Seko JPN 27.51.93 2 Stockholm Jul 08

14 Stephen Austin AUS 27.53.30 3 Stockholm Jul 08

15 Toomas Turb URS 27.54.18 6 Rome Sep 04

16 Markus Ryffel SUI 27.54.99 3 Brussels Aug 28

17 Alex Hagelsteens BEL 27.55.06 4 Stockholm Jul 08

18 Mike McLeod GBR 27.59.42 1 Prague Jun 19

19 Nick Rose GBR 27.59.68 3 Prague Jun 19

20 Steve Jones GBR 28.00.58 6 Prague Jun 19

21 Rafael Marques POR 28.02.20 3 Lisboa May 30

22 Antonio Prieto ESP 28.02.71 10 Prague Jun 19

23 José Sena POR 28.02.80 4 Lisboa May 30

24 Miruts Yifter ETH 28.03.23 2 Pisa Aug 26

25 Tolossa Kotu ETH 28.03.25 11 Prague Jun 19

Avocados Number wrote:

After all of this discussion, the above statements are still holding up very well. I'm sure that we'll be waiting a long time before "was there . . ." admits that he was wrong in asserting otherwise.

"Was there," is right, you are living in a fantasy world.

O.K., I'll respond in kind, a little less charitably:

Mamede was the FASTEST 10,000-meter runner in the WORLD in 1981 -- "end of story" (as you put it). Virgin may not have even been the fastest 10,000-meter runner in his OWN COUNTRY that year. Mamede's record in the 10,000 meters from 1981 to 1984 was vastly superior to anything that Virgin ever did in that event during his entire career. Your statement that Virgin was the fastest 10,000-mater runner in the field in 1981 is, to put it with the utmost charity, highly suspect. Less charitably, it's demonstrably false. In his entire life, Virgin never ran a 10,000-meter race as fast as Mamede did in 1981. In fact, Virgin never ran anywhere close to a world-class 10,000 after 1980.

As for Virgin having "clearly" demonstrated his "mastery" over Kedir, where's the evidence? Kedir was the Olympic bronze medalist at 10,000 meters in 1980, finishing less than one second behind Yifter's gold-medal winning performance in a tactical race. There is no way that Virgin could hang within one second of Yifter in a tactical 10,000-meter race. Yifter, in fact, had embarrassed Virgin in front of the whole world in such a race the year before. Virgin had nowhere near the finishing speed of Yifter and Kedir on the track.

It is certainly POSSIBLE that Virgin would have beaten Kedir in a cross-country race in 1980. It is also almost certainly TRUE that Kedir would have CRUSHED Virgin in a cross-country race in 1982, when he didn't miscount the laps and won the world championship. One can debate which of the two was the better cross-country runner in 1981. But Kedir finished two seconds behind Virgin despite having made his "final" sprint a lap too early. I very much doubt that Virgin could have done the same against Kedir. Your assertion that Virgin was the "dominant runner" in 1981, and had "clearly demonstrated his mastery" over Kedir, is backed by no evidence whatsoever -- much less the "irrefutable empirical evidence" that you claim (but somehow never provide). It's odd that you accuse me of "presenting [my] premise as proof that [my] premise is true." I've presented rather strong empirical support against the statement by "was there . . ." that there is "no reason" to believe that any of the Ethiopians would have beaten Virgin if they had no been confused about the lap count. You've presented no evidence in support of that statement. If you've got some such evidence, I'm willing to consider it and perhaps modify my view, but I'm not going to accept your unsubstantiated opinion as "irrefutable" fact.

As knowledgeable as malmo is, I gotta side with Avo on this one (which reminds me, I need to thaw some guac for later).

Avocados Number wrote:

O.K., I'll respond in kind, a little less charitably:

Mamede was the FASTEST 10,000-meter runner in the WORLD in 1981 -- "end of story" (as you put it). Virgin may not have even been the fastest 10,000-meter runner in his OWN COUNTRY that year. Mamede's record in the 10,000 meters from 1981 to 1984 was vastly superior to anything that Virgin ever did in that event during his entire career.

"Mamede was the FASTEST 10,000-meter runner in the WORLD in 1981"

Big deal, what does time trial running AFTER the 1981 WC have to do with Mamede beating Virgin at World Cross? Virgin beat Mamede at WC - END OF STORY!

Virgin had the fastest time out of anyone in the field in 1981 THIS IS AN IRREFUTABLE EMPIRICAL FACT.

PRs

Virgin 27:29 Paris July 1980

Mamede 27:37 Paris July 1980

Kedir 27:44 Moscow July 1980

Virgin beat BOTH Kedir and Mamede

Virgin vs Kedir

1 win 0 losses.

Virgin vs Mamede

3 wins 0 losses

There is no reason other than wild fantasy to believe that either could beat Virgin in 1981. They both had their chance, neither of them beat Virgin - you can't change that fact.

"Virgin had nowhere near the finishing speed of Yifter and Kedir on the track."

You're ignorant. Yifter was not a factor after 1980, and Virgin had better speed than Kedir.

A counterargument to Avocado is that a stellar track performance doesn't necessarily translate into a stellar cross country performance, and vice versa, especially in the case of Mamede, who usually fell to pieces in championship races. One of the truisms about Porter, for example, is that he was way better in cross country than in track.

Conversely, Marti Liquori was way better in track than in cross country. Liquori outkicked Yifter in Zurich in a 5,000 (after being outkicked by Yifter in Dusseldorf earlier that season), but does anyone think Liquori could have ever been a World Cross Country champion?

Mamede's superior 10,000 meters on the track in a nonchampionship race doesn't indicate much about how he would do in a cross country championship.

The point is that malmo says Virgin was much better at cross country than at track. And, therefore, the fact that Virgin couldn't beat Yifter on the track in the 10,000 doesn't mean that Virgin wasn't the best cross country runner in the world in 1980 and 1981.

Living in the Past wrote: Liquori outkicked Yifter in Zurich in a 5,000 (after being outkicked by Yifter in Dusseldorf earlier that season),

It was the other way around, Zurich first, Dusseldorf next.

Living in the Past wrote:

Mamede's superior 10,000 meters on the track in a nonchampionship race doesn't indicate much about how he would do in a cross country championship.

But Mamede was not faster at 10k. Virgin beat him handily at Paris in 1980, and he beat Mamede handily in 1981. You can't use your flux capacitor to go back to the future to juxtapose times. Even if you could juxtapose FUTURE times, Virgin would have surely beaten Mamede anyway. Mamede was a time-trialer, Virgin was two-time World Cross Champion. C-H-A-M-P-I-O-N.

Malmo, thank you for the corrections. At least I got the cities and the year right. I thought it was Liquori who learned how to beat Yifter after their first race. But it turns out that it was the other way around.

(Anyway, you're doing a great job on this thread. I'll just sit back and watch from here on.)

I thought I said 1977, but I didn't even provide the year of the Yifter-Liquori duals, but that still leaves the two cities.

"dual"

"duels"

George,

First, your earlier statement was that Virgin was the fastest 10K runner in the 1981 field. So how does Virgin's 10K in 1980 make him faster in 1981 than the fastest 10K runner in the world in 1981? As for PRs in 1980, Mamede was obviously not the runner in 1980 that he was in 1981 or thereafter, when he was vastly faster than Virgin ever was over 10,000 meters. (And to the other poster who chimed in during the middle of this debate: I'm well aware that Mamede was a head case, at least when he got to the Olympics in 1984. But there are lots of head cases in our sport. Mamede was a head case who also happened to be the fastest 10,000-meter runner in the world.)

Second, as to your comparison of Virgin's time at a time trial in Paris in 1980 against Kedir's time in the Olympic final in Moscow in 1980: You, of all people, should know that a time trial isn't worth an Olympic medal, and the time that is produced in a time trial isn't comparable to the time that is produced in a tactical Olympic final.

Third, your observation that Yifter "was not a factor after 1980" isn't relevant to anything. The point is that Kedir's finishing speed was much closer to Yifter's finishing speed than Virgin's finishing speed. Yifter against Kedir in a tactical 10,000 (as demonstrated in the 1980 Olympic final) was a race. Yifter against Virgin in a tactical 10,000 (as demonstrated in the 1979 World Cup) was a joke.

Nobody is disputing that Virgin won the 1981 world cross-country championship. You know that.

I don't expect you to admit you're wrong. I can't recall a single time when you have. But I confess that I'm a little surprised by your over-the-top defense of the view that Virgin was the "dominant" runner of 1981, and that there is "no reason" to believe that Kedir or any of the other Ethiopians could have beaten Virgin in the 1981 world cross-country championships if they had not been confused by the lap count. You still haven't provided a single bit of evidence to support your view.

One more post then I'm done. I've presented the irrefutable facts, in black and white: on PRs, on head to head results, and still Avocados Number (normally a steady, well-reasoned fellow) keeps popping up like the Black Night (Monty Python) with no arms and no legs yelling "it's just a flesh wound" and "come back here, you yellow bastard"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eMkth8FWno

What you don’t know about Virgin is that he had some real get-up-and-go when he needed it. He won both of his World titles with a nasty kick and beat both of the runners that Avocado is claiming shudda-cudda-wudda had a better kick. They didn’t. Mamede’s 1:47/3:38 credentials meant squat to Virgin. Mamede's future time trials meant even less. Shudda-cudda-wuddas don't win World Championships. Kedir was with Virgin with 150m to go in 1981, Virgin blew his doors off. Game over, player two.

For your edification, here’s a workout by Virgin in 1978 when he was only a 27:57 10k runner (There are no typos):

3 miles easy, 2400 @ 6:27 (67,67,59,59,67,67), 400 jog, 1600(4:15), 400 jog, 1200(3:05), 1.5 miles easy, 6x300(51,47,45,43,41,38.4), 2 miles easy

Avocados Number wrote:

First, your earlier statement was that Virgin was the fastest 10K runner in the 1981 field. So how does Virgin's 10K in 1980 make him faster in 1981 than the fastest 10K runner in the world in 1981?.

Mamede hadn't yet run a faster 10k than Virgin. That makes him the fastest runner in the field. Don't let the pesky little fact that Virgin also beat Mamede heads up ruin a good rant! Why is it that you are having such a difficult time understanding this?

Avocados Number wrote:

You still haven't provided a single bit of evidence to support your view.

I've given you the facts, over and over and over again.

Avocados Number wrote:

Second, as to your comparison of Virgin's time at a time trial in Paris in 1980 against Kedir's time in the Olympic final in Moscow in 1980

Well since Virgins run in Paris wasn't a time trial AND he beat Mamede, a runner you seem to think was better than Virgin at Madrid but wasn't, I'd say the race was important.

Living in the Past wrote:

A counterargument to Avocado is that a stellar track performance doesn't necessarily translate into a stellar cross country performance, and vice versa, especially in the case of Mamede, who usually fell to pieces in championship races.

How is that a counterargument to what I said? Malmo was the one who said that Virgin was the "best track 10K runner" (I think I got that phrase right; I'm working from memory) in the 1981 world cross-country championships field. As I pointed out in an earlier comment, that's far from clear, since Mamede emerged as the fastest (if not the best) 10,000-meter runner in the world that year, and Kedir was probably better in a tactical 10,000-meter race than Virgin was. As I said, I don't know who would have won a 10,000-meter race among those three in 1981, but I wouldn't pick Virgin as the odds-on favorite. More likely, either Mamede would have pulled away in a front-running performance or Kedir would have blitzed both of them with a fast finish.

It is true, as you say, that "the fact that Virgin couldn't beat Yifter on the track in the 10,000 doesn't mean that Virgin wasn't the best cross country runner in the world in 1980 and 1981." Nor have I ever asserted otherwise. Read what I said. Read what malmo said, and read the statements of "was there . . ." that malmo is asserting to be correct. Make your own decision about whose position is more accurate.

If we are talking about a criminal trial, where "reasonable doubt" is the litmus test, then I believe Avogadro has made enough of a compelling argument to tip the scale. If it's civil trial, then Malmo has won on a barometer of "preponderance of the evidence." Nonetheless, despite what the "facts" show, I do not think it's a stretch to surmise that if the Ethiopian hadn't gone early, he would have had better than a fighting chance of winning the damn race. pretty much common sense. As for Mamede, I don't think he factors in this discussion. The guy ultimately ran a 27:14 10k just a few short years later, but he never proved he could race when it mattered. It's a mirror image of Pat Porter, who despite his "soft, relatively speaking" track credentials, could push 27:17, Olympic medalists to the wire in a championship cross-country race a mere few short years later.

If I had to pick from the list of best long-distance runners ever in US history, I'd have to go with Craig Virgin. The world cross title is as coveted a title as there is in our sport, what with all the top performers from the steeplechase all the way on up to the marathon all converging for that single, spectacular race. Too bad that the US can no longer put a guy in the top 30.