TRAINING

Renato,

is it possible for you to post 16-20 week training schedule for marathon training? This would show your recommended wkouts

for your periodization...

you are running slower than zatopek running on sand and with soccer shoes,60 years ago. ADVICE: forget all this science, TRAIN HARD, VOLUME, QUALITY....you will improve.(emil, ran 40 to 50 x 400)forget all this science bull shit.tell mister canova to train his people to win olimpic medals)

The last time I checked, 28:40 is faster than 28:54.0.

And I'm sure you've not run 26:30.

I prefer to listen to Renato Canova, because he knows what he's talking about.

Emil Zatopek:

"I decided if I am to run better, I must run more (repetitions) in training. But this idea is not correct. It would have been better if I had decided to run faster.

"It was not good. I was not able to recover the next day. I was exhausted for two days... I was trying with quantity to reach some quality. It is not the best method.

"Maybe my training would not be the same. If I tried a new technique and I could be more relaxed and faster with more stamina, maybe my results would be better. But I would be oriented to get the results that are there in my times."

Dear Emily's friend, are you able to explain me why all runners that used very much work of intervals were not able to run fast like best runners of today ? Morceli ran 30 x 400 in 53"/55" with 1 min recovery in Albuquerque, and his best time on 5000m was 13'02" : do you think that his training was correct, when now a lot of people are able running under 13 min without many repetitions ? If you see the records of 20 years ago, in relation of today, you can find these situations :

800m : 1'41"73 (Coe, 81) - 1'41"11 (Kipketer, 97)

1000m : 2'12"18 (Coe, 81) - 2'11"96 (Ngeny, 99)

1500m : 3'30"77 (Ovett, 83) - 3'26"00 (El Guerrouj,98)

2000m : 4'51"52 (Walker, 76) - 4'44"79 (El Guerrouj,99)

3000m : 7'32"1 (H. Rono,78) - 7'20"67 (Komen, 96)

5000m : 13'00"41 (Moorcroft,81)-12'39"36 (Gebre, 98)

10000 : 27'22"47 (H. Rono,78) - 26'22"75 (Gebre, 98)

3000SC: 8'05"4 (H. Rono,78) - 7'55"26 (Boulami, 01)

Mar : 2:08:18 (de Castella,81)-2:04:55 (Tergat, 03)

You can yet find a lot of runners of 20 years ago in top 50 in short distances (800-1500), but almost nobody in long (expecially 10000 and Marathon). How do you can explain this fact ? And about women, why the best runners of 5000 and 10000m of 15-20 years ago were also the best Marathon Runners ? May be because they prepared Marathon using 200 repetitions of 400m, or because they ran MORE LONG RUN FAST ? If the current American System is yet the system of a lot of repetition without a basic STRONG work, I understand the reason because you have no more good runners.

Simply, you don't know what it means to train well.

30 x 400 in 53-55, Renato? All reports that I've heard was that it was 12 x 400. Perhaps you misspoke?

See you un New York on Sunday?

Malmo, I had this information directly from athletes that were with him in the stage (Mohammed Driouche and Abderrhamane Daas). They told me that he ran 3 sets of 10x400m in 53"/54" with 1 min recovery and 5 min pf rest among sets. During the last, some 400 became 55". Of course, I'm not sure of what I don't see directly. For example, some training of Lindgren it seems to me an exaggeration, but everything is possible. The only important problem is to do something that can permit your improvement, and also in the case of Lindgren I think that his training was not so good, because in other case he could run under 27 min 10000m very easy.

About the second question, yes, I'm in New York on Friday evening. If you can send me (thru personal e-mail) your mobile number, when I'm in the hotel, on Saturday morning, I try to contact you for meeting during the day, with great pleasure. Have a nice day.

Renato, I know people keep asking you the same questions but do you think you could post a sample periodized year for 800m runners you have coached. Your marathon descriptions have been great and it would be good to hear your ideas on middle distance running. 42k is just too far for some of us.

I have no problems in posting the real preparation of my best athletes of every distance, because I love this sport and I'm happy when is possible to have a comparison with other fonds of training. I think that the most important quality for a coach is to look at every type of training, without thinking previously "this is right, this is stupid, this is the secret". From every situation we can learn something, but never we must depend completely on something that we hear or read. An expert coach is able to prepare INDIVIDUAL PROGRAMS, knowing the different attitudes of his athletes. So, nothing is perfect, an nothing is totally wrong. Anyway, there is a well defined phylosophy of training that cannot be deny. IF YOU RUN MARATHON, YOU CANNOT RUN A LOW MILEAGE. IF YOU RUN 800m, YOU CANNOT FORGET INTENSITY.

The phylosophy is very clear for every type of event : you must individuate the speed that you can reasonably develop, and at that speed you must increase your endurance. So, the specific work is always a work of POWER (the speed) ENDURANCE.

For developing your specific speed, you need a good basic work before. But the base is AEROBIC for our organic engine, OF STRENGHT for our muscular engine.

So, during the Fundamental Period (may be from 5 to 2 and half months before the main event) we must develop both the bases, working on VOLUME with high mileage (increasing speed), and on STRENGHT with different systems (from weights to uphills, that personally I prefer).

When I come back from NY (on 5th of November), I can post the works of my best athletes, and also my basic programs for different periods and different events.

Thank you very much for all of your good advise and experience shared with us. I am looking forward to reading the types of workoutst you will post for various events. Have a super time in New York!

Do you have books that we can buy that show your training plans for different events? I am sure many people would like to buy what you offer for sale.

"But the base is AEROBIC for our organic engine, OF STRENGHT for our muscular engine." - Renato

I remember a thread someone forwarded to me that said something similar to this. It went something like: "Running is a combination of endurance and speed, but the same activity will not train both. For one, you must train the heart, and for the other, you must train the legs."

This is good stuff.

Canova, I just want to say that your postings are one of the very few things that make this board worth reading.

Thanks for your posts!

I would like to ask Mr. Canova a question regarding the marathon. Excuse me if this has already been covered but I made copies of this thread and haven't read through it completely.

Specifically, how much speedwork is necessary for a 36 year-old 2:19 marathoner trying to run 2:13-2:15?

Do 200's and 400's at near max-effort even help at all?

I have no natural speed (56.0 400, 3:45 1500) and fore me these days to run 28 for a 200 takes a lot of focus and weeks of specific training.

I am attempting to get back in top shape next year and am uncertain whether a regular session of fast 150-300 meter repeats make any positive difference.

Everyone's opinion is appreciated.

Incidentally, I agree with the post concern Gaston Roelants putting in the shorter high-quality stuff before the high volume period. It makes perfect sense to me.

Repetitions of 200 and 400m are no more used in modern marathon training. We don't use normally speed faster than 10% of your Marathon Pace (for example, for an athlete able running at 3:00 pace in 2:06:36, 110% in 2:42 in 1000m : this is the max. speed that we use, going till 400m in 64.0-65.0 for 15-20 times, but exalting recovery (f.e. 200m in 45.0). However, running distances under 1 km can have only mechanical reasons, and of sure is not a fundamental work.

If you want to run at 3'10" / 3'12" pace, your main works are around that speed. You must remember that marathon IS A SPECIALISM OF EXTENSION. So, for example, you can develop your SPECIFIC MARATHON ENDURANCE with these workouts (once every two weeks) :

* 8 x 2000m in 6'20" rec. 1000m in 3'40" (23 km in 1:16:20)

* 6 x 3000m in 9'30" rec. 1000m in 3'40" (23 km in 1:15:20)

* 5 x 4000m in 12'40" rec. 1000m in 3'40" (24 km in 1:18:00)

* 4 x 5000m in 15'50" rec. 1000m in 3'40" (23 km in 1:14:20)

* 3 x 7000m in 22'10" rec. 1000m in 3'40" (23 km in 1:13:50)

* 6/5/4/3/2/1 km rec. 1 km improving speed (19'12" at 3'12"-15'50" at 3'10" - 12'32" at 3'08" - 9'18" at 3'06" - 6'08" at 3'04" - last km under 3', rec. 1 km in 3'40") = 26 km

At the same time, you must develop your long run, alternating every 10 days a work having different goals :

* DURATION (moderate speed, becoming from 2 hr, increasing of 15 min every time, arriving at 2:45 at the 5th session)

* DISTANCE (at a 3'20" pace, starting from 25 km, for going to 30 - 34 - 38 in 4 different sessions).

The normal development of your preparation can be done during a period of about 3 months.

i'am in Europe. Please don't put americans runners down. by the way, How many olimpic medalist have you trained?........0? oh............................thanks

emil's friend wrote:

i'am in Europe. Please don't put americans runners down. by the way, How many olimpic medalist have you trained?........0? oh............................thanks

He's got his fair share of world champions. If you measure the ability of a coach solely on # of olympic medalists, you have a very high limiting factor.

Renato, how fast have YOU ran ? Too many numbers, no medals, no results.Advice: keep simple.

Renato, again, many thanks for sharing your wisdom and experience.

Question, are you saying that long runs in which you alternate race pace with 1km reps at 10% slower than race pace is a good simulator or conditioner for the marathon...and the other workout of primary importance is a long run of 2- 2hr 45 minutes? How much slower should a marathoner run in the long runs of "Duration" be compared to race pace?

By the way, I have been claiming for some 15 or more years that the best training pace is within 5% of race pace and everything else is just mileage at whatever pace helps you maintain circulatory efficiency and fuel efficiency. I have witnessed many time how runner who have done a lot of average paced mileage can drop down at the start of a race season and run a lot faster than their training paces. It made me wonder why everyone is so obsessed with running ast in workouts. I ran a 15:13 5000m run on 45 miles per week and only once ran below 6 minutes (5:52 for two miles in training). Now, I know that I was not world class, nor was I running high mileage, but doesn't it seem odd that a person can run that fast in a race without running fast in training. I coached a 10,000m guy who had a mile personal best of 4:38 who ran 32:23 on 70 miles per week of nothing but 7:00 paced runs. I coached a bunch of sprinters under 50 seconds for the 400m who never ran under 58 in training for a single 400m or 27 for the 200m. Mostly they ran about 10% slower than race pace, but at shorter distances with long recoveries between reps. Does anyone else see the disparity here between speed emphasis in training and that which can be achieved with merely consistent slower, strength workouts? Renato, what is the deal with speed and endurance? How much speed do we really need?