Some more information about kenyan athletes

Bengt Saltin has tested any number of Kenyans. The guys in the sports science faculty at Cologne have too. Add Frank Evertsen also...

What is it you think we don't know about elite Kenyans and you do?

Renato, what is your opinion of the South African runners

claiming to run 2:08 marathons and 1 hour half-marathons

off of 50 to 60 intense miles per week?

Fred -

Which South African Marathoner runs 2:08 Marathons of 50-60 Intense Miles?

pponline.co.uk "Black and White:a Comparison"

This is a great post with a very good insightful view of many of the worlds top athleets, a big thankyou. I think what the americans fail to realise in their posts is that they have never been at the top of the distance running tree, this isn't something which has just happened, the rest of the world has been kicking american asses for decades. When Buddy edelen came to Britain in the 60's to train and improve his running he came because US distance running was a laughing stock and was at least 10 minutes behind in the case of the marathon. During his time in the UK he became the top marathon runner in the world. in other words he rebelled against the American distance running culture of isolationism. it is still happening today, how many times did we see Meb or Culpepper on the circuit this summer? they stay at home in teh US running against people of the same ability, its safe and they are a big fish in a small pond, history is repeating itself. the people you consider super stars from your distance running past, Pre, Al Sal, Kennedy were good runners but they were never close to being the best in the world, whoever it was they came up against, Viren, Lopez, De castella, Geb, Baumann, they got their backsides kicked. A lot of Americans seem to have the idea that if it wasn't for EPO they would be the top distance runners in the world, they are not even second rate, guys like Craig Mottram, Jon Brown, Kamille Masse, Estevez, Mehdi Baala, are way way way ahead of your guys. When you are beating them, then you might have an argument. it is such a ridiculous idea that the vast majority of Africans are doping, your country has the worst doping record in recent yeras and your administartion has brushed offences under the carpet so many times, I think you should clean up your own backyard before you go complaining.

I have to disagree about Pre. He ran some fast times and was within inches or seconds of world records on several occasions. "Serious" runners often ignore the success he did have at the hand of his "failure" in Munich. I'm not a Pre worshipper, but, I don't think he was B-level.

Waz,

The British are no better, with a woman being your top runner. Speak of Americans, as you will, but the English are just as pathetic. For every Craig Mottram, we have a David Krummenacker. Did a Brit win the World Indoor 800m title this past year? Didn't think so.

How can you say that individuals are ahead of us, if they lose to Americans? Pre, Salazar, Kennedy never being close to the best in the world??? Pre, 4th in the Olympics, makes him 4th BEST IN THE WORLD over 5000m. Kennedy 6th in the 5000m Olympics makes him 6TH BEST IN THE WORLD in 1996. Salazar won the Boston and New York Marathons, making him the best in the world at that time.

Learn about the sport instead of coming off ignorant.

When the reasoning skills get too bad around here, I have to show up and set everything straight.

No one who belives a good number of Africans are doping must necessarily believe any of the following things:

1)That Africans wouldn't be the best in the world and have the most depth without them

2)That Africans don't train hard

3)That Americans would be competitive as a group without anyone using drugs.

4)Africans who succumb to drugs are bad immoral people looking for a short cut.

5)That genetics aren't also involved in the ethnic discrepencies observed.

Only an idiot would imagine drugs are the reason Africans dominate distance running (just as the would be stupid to think drugs are the only reason Americans dominate sprinting), but they would also be an idiot to think that drugs aren't involved in some of these unreal performances.

Folks seem to forget that the Africans aren't just competing with us (I'd say beating the Americans doesn't even occur to them as a goal), they are competing with each other. For as much good stuff as Renato has provided, his naivete about human beings and what they will do to win is naive.

I presume the scenario works about like this - someone is training hard as hell and doing everything right and has gotten down around low 13:00 with an occasional sub-13:00 on occasion and they are training at the limits of their ability. The are winning some meets, but begin to suspect that runner Y, perhaps a countryman whom they know, has suddenly made a jump and is doing workouts that, from experience, they know are difficult, becomes obsessed with the notion, perhaps true, that the person is doping. They are then faced with a choice - "cut the corner" with everyone else, or let your work go to waste.

No one uses drugs to avoid work - the use drugs to maximize the benefit derived from their work. Renato is a bit naive to think that Americans like DeHaven or others don't work hard. I have friends only running in the low 14:00/mid 29:00/2:20 range who run periods of 150 a week and are constantly on the verge of exhaustion. And I know B caliber Kenyan road racers who eat burgers and half-ass train and still beat these guys. So genetics is a part of the story when examining populations, at the top levels, putting the proper work with a larger pool of talent is part of the equation, and at the very top, in my opinion, drugs have fomented an arms race that is evident in closing 10k's in 12:58 - an arms race that most of the participants would probably prefer to get out of (since clean races would probably see the same order of finish, but with less unreal times) if they could be sure their competition was clean. How can you have any confidence in the testing protocols as now instituted? I know damn well that if I was training has hard as I knew I possibly could and was running low 13:00's and getting my ass handed to me and knew from experience that it just isn't possible to go harder (as others seem to) without pharmalogical help, I would be sorely tempted to get on hte same page as everyone else and to go that route.

Renato Canova,

I want to ask you questions about our American runners. Which current or future young American runners do you feel will do well in the international scene? What do you feel Jorge Torres needs to do to get to the very elite scene? What is your opinion of Alan Webb, Dathan Rithzenien, and the fact that there is a resurgance in American Distance running? Particularly, what do you feel Alan Webb needs to do to reach his full potential? Finally, what do you think Alan Webb's potential is?

-SoupNazi

Bengt Saltin, that is my friend from a seminary in Austria in '98, tested many kenyan together Nicolas Terrados, a spanish scientist working with him, during a spedition in Kenya in 1995. They went to Kenya with some machine, practically a laboratory like they had in Denmark. The biggest problem was how to contact and to find the athletes. Terrados told that with them there was also Anders Garderud, former world record holder of 3000 SC and winner in OG '76, that at that time was the director of Stockholm meeting. Among the found athletes, all of top level, there was also a very fat man, that said to be Peter Koech (World Record Holder of steeple after Henry Rono with 8:05:39). Peter Koech was almost 100 kg heavy, and Garderud said "He's not Peter Koech, he improved the record in Stockholm 4 years ago, I well know him, is not possible...". Saltin and Terrados anyway tested this man (that really was Peter Koech) in order to investigate his VO2 max, and the result was THE HIGHEST VALUE EVER FOUND (about 92), in spite of 30 kg more than when he was in shape !

This can explain many things about the talent of many kenyans, and also that the VO2 max doesn't represent a value so fundamental among the qualities of an athlete.

What I do, and Saltin and Terrados couldn't do, is to TEST THEIR TRAINING, not only them.

For testing the training of an athlete, you need to have the athlete himself at your disposal for long time.

The athlete has to accept to be tested many times, but nobody accepts to be used like a guinea-pig, for the interest of some scientist but without interest for himself.

Athletes can accept to be tested if this is part of a program for understanding THEIR PERSONAL TRAINING in order to have more individual information and to improve it.

Instead, scientists want to test athletes following their protocols, asking them to do some test very far from their real activity.

If scientists were be able to test the real training, probably the knowledge about the physiology of a champion could be more advanced.

I don't think that Thys or Syster run only 50-60 miles per week, as don't think that Seb Coe coul run only 35-40 miles per week, like also his father Peter said.

This discrepancy depend on a different way to consider the weekly mileage.

When I speak about 150 M per week (really I speak about 250 km, for me is easier), I put in the amount everything : warm up and warm down, very slow run, short sprints uphill, km. run with specific exercises, ecc.

Instead, for ex., Peter Coe consider only THE QUANTITY OF KM RUN AT SPECIFIC SPEED. Really, Coe was able running also 220 km a week, if we consider everything.

Once, in 1987, Seb was in Italian Centre of Tirrenia, and I followed him in a long run of 30 km with the car of the Centre, at 3'40" - 3'20" pace, and the day after he went for a very tough session of weights.

I think that S.African marathoner really run not less than 130 miles a week, considering also miles run at speed of regeneration (under 80% of Marathon Pace).

It's not possible running a fast marathon with a low mileage. In the past, there were athletes exceeding in the other side (for ex., Japaneses running also more than 400 km per week : Toshihiko Seko did before a marathon one session of 100 km called "mentalizazion", and really I think that nobody needs this type of work), but of sure nobody among the top specialists ran less than 180-200 km a week.

But the real problem is not only MILEAGE, but the percentage of intensity. If you run 200 miles per week, very far from Marathon Pace, your goal is to be tired and to destroy yourself, not to train.

Not always "Train hard" is also "Train well", and not always "Train hard" is "Train much" in mileage. Train well is something different.

Renato Canova wrote:

Saltin and Terrados anyway tested this man (that really was Peter Koech) in order to investigate his VO2 max, and the result was THE HIGHEST VALUE EVER FOUND (about 92), in spite of 30 kg more than when he was in shape !

.

Do you mean highest value ever found for a runner? Many cross country skiers and cyclists have recorded higher numbers.

Like an earlier poster mentioned, no one thinks that drugs are the reason that Africans dominate in distance running. Without drugs, they would still have the highest percentage of competitors at the world class level. However, there is nothing that anyone can say that is going to deter the doubters from believing - rightly so in most circumstances - the very top tier Africans are juicing. It brings to mind the controversy over IQ testing. It's ok to point out that some groups have higher average IQ's than whites. But when it's pointed out that whites (caucasians) have the widest SD (standard deviation) in IQ, all hell breaks loose. The SD in most IQ literature is listed at 15 points, but that really only applies to caucasians and blacks, with most other ethnic groups/races having SD's under 9; Ashkenazi jews, E. Asians for example, higher average IQ's than caucasains, but they have much narrower fields of distribution, with high numbers of individuals clustered around their means. No one wants to talk about this stuff openly, just as no one seemed to even want to consider that some of the Africans may be using drugs. It wasn't proper to mention it, until events of the last several months with Chepchumba, Lagat, Bitok. Now, you can bring it up, but all Hell breaks looks if there is specualtion that other Africans may be on gear. A higher percentage of E. Africans have talent, or the physiological necessities for success in distance running, but physiological testing has found whites with the same abilities.

BTW, Bungei running fast several weeks after pneumonia that put him in the hospital is not like someone running well two or three weeks after a bad cold or flu. There is no comparison. Either Bungei had something else wrong with him, or the story is a work of 'factoin' - fact and fiction.

Renato's posts are interesting.

A few brits have performed even over the last few years.

Jon Brown 2000 Olympics - FOURTH BEST IN THE WORLD, Karl Keska 2000 Olympics - EIGHTH BEST IN THE WORLD, Karl Keska 2003 World Champs - NINTH BEST IN THE WORLD.

Kelly Holmes 2003 World Champs - SECOND BEST IN THE WORLD, HAYLEY TULLETT 2003 World Champs - THIRD BEST IN THE WORLD.

In the World Athletics Final this year, Hayley and Jo Pavey came 3rd and 4th over 1500m, then Jo was third in the 3k next day (check Jo Pavey's results and world rankings over the least three/four years for one of the most underrated of british athletes). And there's Paula too.

Those are just of the top of my head. We both know that those results don't really mean Jon Brown was the fourth best marathon runner that year, just like Kennedy probably wasn't 6th "best" in 1996 either. And it was nice for Krummenacker to win indoors, but where was he when it mattered? Same for Regina Jacobs.

This is not a britain vs america thing. waz made good points (he's generally clued up when he's not on a Paula rant) and there's no need to jump up and insult him just because he spoke some truths about American distance running - unless you were a distance running nut in the seventies, no one outside the American college system has heard of Steve Prefontaine.

the kenyans don't have higher vo2max values than the caucasian runners, because of their ectomorph-body types, especially their slender legs they need less energy to run=more efficient=faster.

Of course the americans,europeans train hard too, a lot of them too hard, i don't believe that kenyans are mentally stronger.There was a big research by Bengt Saltin and some other danish guys, i saw a documentation about this research on euro.TV.Kenyans have lower max. lactic acid values so they don't push themselfs harder, this may also explain why they are not so dominant in the 800m as in longer distances.They tested two groups of teenagers, kenyans and denish boys, denish boys were physcially more active,had higher vo2max values, higher max. lactic acid values, they did the same training for some weeks/months and the kenyans ran a lot faster in a 5k time trial because they are more efficient by nature.

Japhet Kosgei(2:07 guy) for example ran a 62min half-marathon after 1 year-!!! of training, they measured his lower leg volume and said that he has almost the perfect legs for running.

Running performance is of course not only related to your lower leg volume but there is a relation between effiency and your body type.

Salazar had a high but not extremely high vo2max(77 or so) but a strange lower leg form, of course he trained extremely hard but his leg form may also explain why he was so efficient(he ran marathons at a very high percent. of his vo2max).Pre had a vo2max of 85, trained very hard too but had the body-type of a football player so that may explain why he wasn't as fast as Salazar.

Take a look at Brent Vaughns legs, no wonder that this guy ran 8:45 with 35mpw of training.

http://www.dyestat.com/3image/2xc/CO/statemeet/bmile-burrell-vaughn.jpg

The body type is just one of many elements which determine running performance but the sucess og the kenyans shows that is an important one.

"no one outside the American college system has heard of Steve Prefontaine."

yeah, just ask Ian Stewart, but you're right, no one in American knows who the hell all those guys you mentioned are as well (John Brown, Karl Keska, Hayley Tullet, Jo Pavey...)

to each his own.

Funny that Coeovett should just tell us that Kenyans don't have higher VO2max values than Caucasians, because if we look at the numbers Renato gives us for an overweight Peter Keoch, it suggests that his VO2max would ~144 ml/kg/min if he was race-fit. That's pretty high, no? (unless you're a horse, of course).

(Assuming 52 kg when fit and 82 kg when overweight. Absolute VO2max 7.5 L/min).

The fourth finding - a critical one for our discussion of whether the Kenyans have a genetic edge - was that sedentary adolescent Kenyans had VO2max readings of 47 (the same as Scandinavians), very active (but non-training) Kenyan teenagers had VO2maxs of about 62, and seriously training high school Kenyan runners checked in with average VO2maxs of 65 to 68. Senior elite Kenyan runners have had their VO2max levels measured at 75 to 85. This progression in aerobic capacities from the mid-40s to high-70s and low-80s is exactly the same as the one observed in Americans (sedentary American youth have VO2max values in the 40s, while topflight runners like Salazar, Ryun, and Prefontaine were in the high 70s and low- to mid-80s). The progression in VO2max values is the same in Kenyans as it is in Americans! In addition, as high school Kenyans become elite senior runners, they increase their number of blood vessels per muscle cell and also enhance the concentrations of energy-producing aerobic enzymes inside their muscle cells. Those are natural responses to hard training and aren't necessarily caused by superior genes..

In the research of Saltin and Terrados, with children from Scandinavia and Kenya, there is an identity of values when are very young, and a growing difference when are older.

Probably this fact is due to the difference in type of life between the two groups investigated.

I wrote before that Training is not only OFFICIAL TRAINING for a discipline, but is every human activity that can modify your physiology.

If you take two twin brothers, one seated 8 hours per day because employer in an office, the other working 8 hours in the country, and you train them with same workouts, their output during a race shall be very different, because really THEIR TRAINING IS NOT THE SAME, having the countryman a physical activity that must be added to the official training.

EFFECTIVELY, HE IS MORE TRAINED.

So, may be that the difference between white caucasian people and african people from highlands is not genetic (if not in little percentage), but mostly phenotypical (due to different activity).

For the same reason, old Italians were more talented that current Italians, and also old Kenyans were more talented than current Kenyans.

Kip Keino told me that never he trained more than 2 times per week, and his training was only on track. He could not run in the roads or in the forrest, because at that time it was not dignified running in shorts publicly !

Now, the main reason of african supremacy is that running is a profession, already good also for normal athletes. If you think that a normal kenyan salary is about 1.500 dollars per year, you understand how a not very strong athlete is able, in one season, to earn more than in 10 years of normal job at home.

This fact is a big motivation for a lot of kenyans, so today the common mentality changed, and runners are considered lucky people, not crazy men.

I suggest not to consider the differences between kenyans and white people, but between OLD WHITE PEOPLE and NEW WHITE PEOPLE. If genetically we are the same of 30 years ago, why our talent is now so much lower ? Because we have no more preparation enough thru our normal life, that excludes physical activity, expecially in the field of endurance.

So, it's true that now Britains have yet Jon Brown, Keska, Pavey and Tullett ; but once Coe, Ovett, Cram, and before Bannister, Chataway, Pirie and many other WERE THE BESTS, not among top ten.

Athletics can be measured, and now Europe is very less competitive than 20 years ago. So, our decline has the effect to light up the african results, that often are normal, and not so good.

I want to say thank you to Renato Canova, this is the most interesting thread I have read to date on Letsrun. Very informative and gives some insight to what some of the Africans are doing. I agree with waz that you guys have gone over the edge trying to chase him off, but he still stuck around, amazing on his part. If I were him I would have bailed on this mission a long time ago, you people don't desearve his knowledge.