Josh McDougal is the man - Sick 5k/10k double 22:57 apart

oasis wrote:

OK if he runs well at nationals then I guess Malmo, you know what you are talking about, but if he doesn't race well then you have no f****** clue even if you were once an American record holder. We will just have to wait and see.

That just about sums up the quality of your debate and experience.

malmo wrote:

el troll wrote:That much track work never led to little imbalance injuries?

I must have missed that Runners World article. Forgive me.

Malmo, you are in classic form today. I guess if I was glued to the computer all day long on a Saturday, I would be just as ornery. I'm talking from personal experience, as well as from other runners I knew... I think that much track volume on a consistent basis would've just about ruined my achilles. But I guess that's just me. As one previous poster said, I suppose I am p***y.

Here's hoping McDougal wins one at Nationals... he seems like a hard working kid.

McDougal is extremely talented. He really should have NCAA titles already, but his coaches alway peak him at the wrong time. Why don't they learn? How hard is it to figure out that maybe doing a triple right now isn't too bright? That said, Josh has enough talent that he could still very well win a title, but if he doesn't, his coaches will look like mondo jackasses yet again.

el troll wrote:

Malmo, you are in classic form today. I guess if I was glued to the computer all day long on a Saturday, I would be just as ornery

Why would I be "ornery"? I take it I was on the computer while stuck in line at Costco? Damn, only Flagpole Willy is that talented!

el troll wrote:As one previous poster said, I suppose I am p***y.

fresh cider wrote:

McDougal is extremely talented. He really should have NCAA titles already, but his coaches alway peak him at the wrong time.

I've never seen an NCAA field that McDougal should have won. What do you know that I don't?

I know he's extremely talented. I know he stomps great runners and puts up the fastest times during the regular season. Then he nearly always under performs at NCAAs.

Are you talking about Jordan?

witness wrote:

Why wouldn't having the fastest 1500 [equivalent] in the nation give him confidence and ability to kick and win a longer race like the 5k or 10k?

Only if he has a kick to match. His competitors all have equivalent 1500 times, yet they have better kicks. Life isn't fair.

fresh cider wrote:

I know he's extremely talented. I know he stomps great runners and puts up the fastest times during the regular season. Then he nearly always under performs at NCAAs.

Name an NCAA event that McDougal "should have won?" I can't think of any.

You can't just look at his 5K/10K times period. He was racing, and in the 5K he laid down a huge surge at the end. You can make all of the 15K analysis you want, but McD's not a pro right now. Plus, he has 1500M Heats coming up and like someone said, he's wearing spikes (achilles).

McD's conditioning can handle everything. But then, Ritz gets injured all the time doing things that his conditioning can handle. Webb got injured at U-M running a hill that he set a record on previously. IMO, McD should be fine, but spiking it that much is a lot. I mean really, if a 1500M/5K/10K isn't much, then what is? Maybe he can steeplechase and run the 800M as well, before we call it too much. But even then, since McD's the class of the conference, I "guess" it'd still be an easy quintuple.

Obviously I think McDougal is a bigger talent than you do. I believe his times and the people he has beat indicate he should have won multiple titles by now. I'm not going to make a list for you, as you'll just think everyone else in those fields are more talented than McDougal and Josh deserves better than that.

I'm with malmo, I can't really see any races that he should have won. Just think about it Solinsky has been in just about every race McD has been in. If you think McD is better than Solinsky then we obviously can't agree.

malmo wrote:

fresh cider wrote:

I know he's extremely talented. I know he stomps great runners and puts up the fastest times during the regular season. Then he nearly always under performs at NCAAs.

Name an NCAA event that McDougal "should have won?" I can't think of any.

Agreed. Until this year, he was a 13:52 guy. Maybe that means a guy that should have won titles in the crappy '90s, but these days the best college guys are running at least 13:30. Granted, he was significantly better in cross-country, but he never outclassed the field.

McDougal will certainly contend at NCAAs, but even this year it wouldn't necessarily be a choke if he didn't win. He's up against a 13:30/27:33 guy with a good kick in Rupp, a 13:27 guy who always brings it at the championships in Solinsky, and several more guys who have a good chance to win.

fresh cider wrote:

Obviously I think McDougal is a bigger talent than you do. .

No you don't. His 13:20 speaks volumes, but he doesn't have the championship-level kick yet. I'm a realist, you're not. Simple.

There has never been an NCAA field in which McDougal should have won. If there was you could have pointed it out to me.

No surprise that McDougal goes on to the finals. The more interesting result is the Cornell guy's 3:42.80. I can think of a couple of explanations for a performance like that in the qualifying round, but perhaps we could get the explanation from the horse's . . . mouth. Robert?

12 Advance: Top 3 Each Heat plus Next 3 Best Times

Meet Record: M 3:37.41 1979 Sidney Maree, Villanova

3:47.80 NCAA

Name Year School Prelims

================================================================================

1 Wyner, Jim 08 Cornell 3:42.80QNCAA

2 Tscheirhart, Kevin 10 Virginia 3:49.02Q

3 McDougal, Josh 08 Liberty 3:49.58Q

4 Ng'etich, Abraham 08 Iona 3:46.85QNCAA

5 Foerster, Jan 07 Virginia 3:49.16Q

6 Feldman, Max 07 Connecticut 3:49.72Q

7 Miller, Brad 10 Syracuse 3:47.60QNCAA

8 Konoval, Tim 07 Pittsburgh 3:49.45Q

9 Johnston, Gabriel 07 Columbia 3:49.95Q

10 Spooner, Chris 08 Duke 3:47.93q

11 Hanlon, Michael 07 Colgate 3:48.42q

12 Jesien, Andrew 09 Virginia 3:49.76q

13 Cebula, Mike 07 So Conn St 3:50.61

14 Hortian, Adam 07 Iona 3:51.24

15 Gallagher, Jake 09 Yale 3:51.78

16 Brett, Allan 10 Villanova 3:52.24

17 Hatch, Charlie 10 Cornell 3:52.58

18 Kelhower, Anthony 09 UMBC 3:52.68

19 Gertzen, Brian 07 Yale 3:52.92

20 Dalpiaz, Brian 07 Georgetown 3:53.18

21 Sives, Kevin 10 Villanova 3:57.39

22 Laboy, Andre 07 Georgetown 3:58.29

23 Bean, Alex 10 Georgetown 3:59.10

24 Mason, Alex 09 Georgetown 4:00.07

25 O'Callaghan, Tadhg 08 Yale 4:00.14

26 Balouris, John 08 St Francis PA 4:05.52

-- Corcoran, Richard 08 Villanova DNF

-- Kimple, Owen 10 Cornell DNF

-- Bonsey, Brandon 09 Georgetown DNF

Josh could have beat Nef and Rohatinsky at cc this year, come on. Josh should have won the 10,000 last year.

malmo wrote:

fresh cider wrote:

Obviously I think McDougal is a bigger talent than you do. .

No you don't. His 13:20 speaks volumes, but he doesn't have the championship-level kick yet. I'm a realist, you're not. Simple.

There has never been an NCAA field in which McDougal should have won. If there was you could have pointed it out to me.

Ritz had no kick. Ritz's kick is probably worse than Josh's. So your point is not valid.

mr. randy wrote:

Ritz had no kick. Ritz's kick is probably worse than Josh's. So your point is not valid.

McDougal isn't Ritzenhein is he? Your point is a classic non sequitur.

No it is different. As of this year McD was a what, 13:52 guy? Come on ritz was faster in high school. Ritz was much more developed when he won his title than McD was this past CC season.