HALL-2:08.24

PreRunner wrote:

If you don't count Khalid K's 2:07 and Abdi's 2:08

and Salazar's NYC 2:08:13 which was found to be short.

Today, Ryan Hall's 2:08:24 would be the true American Born New American Record!

Let's call it the WASP record and call it a day. I figure that's what people are looking for in an "American" record anyway.

Keith Stone wrote:

Let's call it the WASP record and call it a day. I figure that's what people are looking for in an "American" record anyway.

No, but that is apparently what YOU are looking for in order to perpetuate a race-related argument that shouldn't exist in the first place.

His post was extremely fair and logical, while you simply sound like an antagonistic Bill Maher wannabe.

Swofford10¾ wrote:

So by this logic, let's go naturalize a bunch of Kenyan runners and that will return the US to marathoning dominance. They'd all be legit US citizens, but any AR's, WR's, or major marathon victories would be rather hollow wouldn't they?

The current AR in the 1500 is held by a man who hid his US citizenship for a year for selfish reasons. Whose AR did he break? That's right, Lagat broke Sydney Maree's AR, a man who is no longer a US citizen.

Talk about a clusterf***.

Thank you, malmo.

he needs to get out and run a fast 10k. He clearly has some wheels.

Look in the mirror! wrote:

No, but that is apparently what YOU are looking for in order to perpetuate a race-related argument that shouldn't exist in the first place.

Shouldn't exist in the first place? Agreed. I should point out that I'm not the guy arguing for an "American BORN" record, that's the guy I responded to who seemed to be making a "pretty good for a white guy" argument. It was insulting to Hall, who deserved props without the "real American" crap.

His post was extremely fair and logical, while you simply sound like an antagonistic Bill Maher wannabe.

Fair and logical? Geez, sounds like Faux News. His argument was insulting, plain and simple. It showed the logic of a two year old.

Hall's performance stands on it's own. Damn frickin' good. Trying to tie it to "American born" or "best white guy" or whatever denigrates what he accomplished. Best debut, and it should have stopped there, but NOOO, some bigot decides to pull out the "Best REAL American" card. Any doofus that pulls out that tired argument needs a slap in the face.

malmo wrote:

The current AR in the 1500 is held by a man who hid his US citizenship for a year for selfish reasons. Whose AR did he break? That's right, Lagat broke Sydney Maree's AR, a man who is no longer a US citizen.

Talk about a clusterf\uck.

I didn't know Sydney Maree gave up his US citizenship. He moved back to South Africa after Apartheid ended, but as far as I know he has dual citizenship.

Btw, Apartheid seems like a good description of the kind of selective performance recongition some people are advocating here. Let's pay them the respect they deserve, i.e., zero.

Ok, just for kicks, let's think about this. When you see Saif Saeed Shaheen racing for Quatar, what is your first thought? Is it, "Wow, Quatar running must really be getting good!" No. You think the same thing everyone else does..."He left his homeland to make a better life for himself."

Isn't that the same thing with KK and Lagat (I'll get to Meb & Abdi later)? Yes, they are American and should be treated as such, but it says nothing about the state of the American running culture. Ryan's performance today does. It says that kids born (and raised, more importantly) here CAN compete with the worlds best.

Many have argued that Abdi and Meb came here as kids which makes them more reflective of the state of American running that KK or Lagat who came here as adults. I agree that this should be considered. Anyone who has had to fight the American culture of fast food, video games, gangsta rap, football (American style), and pot and has survived to perform at the level they have should be celebrated. I think the "American born" record really only applies to the Khannouchi's and Lagat's (and might we through the Shaheen's in there for all my Quatari born brothers).

The fact is, America is CULTURALLY different than East/North Africa. Until our culture can change, these shining moments in American born racing will be few and far between. We (Americans) CAN compete with the worlds best but we have to change our lifestyle, not our genes.

Obviously culture and work ethic are a huge part of it. Genetics too must play a part, but there's nothing to be done about that.

My question is, what upcoming American runners most resemble Hall physically? Short, light, with disproportionally long legs. His physique must have a lot to do with his success.

Anyone who strains to be "colorblind" on the genetic differences that might affect runnig ability should get down on their m*****f****** knees and thank Hall and Mottram who are showing more than any message board crybabies that people of any color can potentially succeed as top runners. The day that a Ryan Hall runs the WR is the day when qualifying adjectives for birthplace or color will be left behind.

Turn that argument around and point out that KK and Lagat had to overcome the challenges of poverty and inadequate healthcare in Africa.

Ryan Hall had all he could wish for in terms of training facilities and equipment, he didn't have to run barefoot on rocky trails or spend hours slaving away on the family farm just so his siblings could have food to eat and go to school for a few years.

Having to resist the temptations of fast food or pot doesn't really compare, that's just a fuc\king ridiculous argument for your bizarre brand of racism.

Webb could very well be a competitive 5000m runner. He deffinately has the right tools for it, the same tools that Mottram has: speed, endurance, and strength. I think the way in which he was able to close in the Mt.SAC 800m race he ran actually bodes very well for him. In 2005, when he was consistently running 3:33ish for 1500m, he ran some 800m races in 1:48/147, but this was in June/July. Now he closing really well in mid-April in low 1:47- probably could've gone sub 1:47 if he hadn't been boxed in and had a better start, but at this time in the season, that's pretty good for him I think. We may see him moving more into the realm of the committed 5000m runner after the 2008 Olympics. 2010 may be a good year to make that shift, or not, depending on how his development as a 1500m/miler goes. But the best 5000m runners have his speed, and he obviously has the strength (27:35) to run a good 5000m if he trained specifically for it.

hypnotoad wrote:

I didn't know Sydney Maree gave up his US citizenship. He moved back to South Africa after Apartheid ended, but as far as I know he has dual citizenship.

You may be correct ... or not?

Loss of South African Citizenship (Section 6)

A South African citizen who by a formal and voluntary act acquires the citizenship of another country, automatically loses his or her South African citizenship.

Retention of South African citizenship may, however, be applied for, but must be done and be approved before acquisition of the other citizenship to prevent automatic loss of the South African citizenship. Applications must be on form BI 1664 and are subject to payment of a prescribed fee of R115-00. Applications may be lodged at any Home Affairs domestic office or if abroad, at the nearest South African Embassy or Mission.

Persons who have lost their South African citizenship under similar circumstances under section 15(1)(a) of the now repealed South African Citizenship Act, 1949 (Act No. 44 of 1949), may apply for exemption from the loss in terms of section 26(4) of Act 88 of 1995, by submission of a duly completed BI 1666 and payment of the prescribed fee of R115-00 at any Home Affairs domestic office or if abroad, at the nearest South African Mission or Embassy.

Resumption (Section 13)

A person who has lost or has been deprived of his or her South African citizenship may apply for resumption at any Home Affairs domestic office. Application must be on a BI 175 and a prescribed fee of R115-00 is payable.

To qualify, former South African citizens by birth and descent must have returned to South Africa permanently. Former South Africans by naturalisation or registration must have a valid permanent residence permit or exemption from such permit and must have taken up permanent residence in South Africa.

--------------------------

I wonder how his trial was resolved. I can't imagine there are too many places worse than a South African prison.

Posted to the web on: 26 May 2006

Public Policy Correspondent

EMBATTLED former National Empowerment Fund (NEF) CEO Sydney Maree said yesterday the frequent postponement of his case was beginning to have a huge “drain” on him both financially and emotionally.

Maree, who is facing fraud and corruption charges emanating from an alleged irregular contract with Deutsche Bank, was speaking out for the first time since the start of his fraud trial this week.

Maree was fired in June last year after allegations that he had signed an irregular contract with Deutsche Bank and allegedly transferred R1m into his personal bank account.

The former track athlete, whose trial has now been postponed to September, has pleaded not guilty.

Interesting, but doesn't that answer the opposite question?

I'm wondering if he has retained his US citizenship after moving back to SA. The SA government doesn't have any say in that, that's purely a US question.

Racism, by it's very name, implies prejudice or mis-treatment based on one's skin color. Cultural differences have nothing to do with skin color. It has to do with mind set, character, and customs.

Is it wrong to identify cultural differences? My "bizarre brand of racism" is not racism at all, you idiot. I would argue that the struggle for life is what makes the North/East Africans what they are...strong in mind and body.

If you really understood what it takes to be a great runner, you would have seen that my comment about American culture is exactly what brings us down, not because it is so tough, but because we have it so easy. Hungry? Go through the drive through. Have anxiety? Just smoke some weed. Angry about life? Let it out through your music. The fact that we don't understand sacrifice and hard work is why Hall's performance is so extraordinary. Most Americans would rather j*** off than run.

If you actually think people in poor third-world societies do not have to cope with similar distractions and temptations, then you are hilariously ignorant. Which I guess explains your racism, yes, racism. You don't have to "mistreat" you just have to discriminate and that's exactly what you're doing. KK's world-beating performances as an American are not as valuable to you as a secondary placement by a blond, blue-eyed white boy. Despite the fact that he lived in the US for many years before he ran his WR as a Moroccan.

The only reason Hall set any legitimate record (fastes US debut) is that another American, KK, is ineligible to compete in that category. However, his debut was 2:07:10 and his first American finish was 2:07:01, so in my book that makes him the US marathoner with the fastest debut.

Stone's right on this one, this is just a pathetic grab to jump on someone's bandwagon when you have no other real tie to him and he wouldn't know you from Jethro.

What would you have Bernard do: pass up his best shot at the Olympics or wait x number of more years and go through his whole citizenship process again?

You just don't get the English language, do you. Look at the f*****g word...RACE-ism.

Have I even mentioned anyones skin color in any of my posts? All I have done is suggest that KK & Lagat are not reflective of American running culture just as Shaheeef Shaheeen Sharock (whatever his name is) is not reflective of Quatari running culture. That's called critical analysis and is something that you need to learn. If you call that racism, you have some serious issues, pal.

Racism is judging or discriminating because of skin color. That I have not done. I have simply drawn a logical conclusion to an event.

By the way, I think that Meb's silver medal was just about as tumpeted as Hall's race today. Why is that? Well, read my posts and see (hint...he is an American who grew up here).

Bottom line...American culture did not affect KK or Lagat's formative years because they didn't live here. You might want to Google formative in case you don't know what that means.