Not only are Kenyans genetically superior but so are kids from Elmhurst, Illinois. Year after year, York HS (made up entirely of kids from Elmhurst) dominates Illinois distance running. Their success is simply inexplicable otherwise.
Not only are Kenyans genetically superior but so are kids from Elmhurst, Illinois. Year after year, York HS (made up entirely of kids from Elmhurst) dominates Illinois distance running. Their success is simply inexplicable otherwise.
Didn't the B-level Kenyans run way, way faster than anyonme else at NTN?
You know, I know a school that won multiple state D-5 titles with 17min guys; they must be as good asKenyans, right?
Gentleman it is great to see posts from you. I wish you both health and a great new year. I sure wish we could take the tracks of today, back in time, to your day. I still have a few cinders in my right knee from a fall way back when! Take care!
hold the phone wrote:
Actually, if he develops along the same lines it will add further credence to the idea that genetics plays a role in athletic success.
(Though how anyone could actually doubt that in the first place, I have no idea.)
I think he meant to show that the guys have the genetics, and aren't from Africa. They do the work. How many other guys REALLY put in the work. Personally, I think it's silly for any Westerner to actually train like a Kenyan. They're not Kenyans. A solid Lydiard approach is more suited to developemnt of guys not born of people who have been at altitude for many generations.
I totally agree with Bob Schul. I've heard of studies about the calf sizes between the E. Africans. Apparently with thinner lower-legs, you save something like 10% more energy per mile - Comes out to 31% for a 5k. If you know anything about the centrifugal force and its affect on your stride over a long distance, you know that thin calves are a valuable asset.
I wish I could agree about the fact that America has the same amount of "undiscovered" talent. Go and look around. You just don't see white people with such thin calves. I'm not saying that this is the only factor, I'm just saying that non-East Africans have to work harder for it. When someone like Craig Mottram comes along, you know they have huuuge balls.
Horsford wrote:
Not only are Kenyans genetically superior but so are kids from Elmhurst, Illinois. Year after year, York HS (made up entirely of kids from Elmhurst) dominates Illinois distance running. Their success is simply inexplicable otherwise.
Really? I didn't know Marius Bakken was from Elmhurst, Illinois...damn and all this time I thought he was Norwegian.
Other "big" elite world class distance runners
Kamiel Maase 1.88/68 kilos (6.3/150)
T.Takaoka, 1.86/64 kilos (6.2/141)
A.Culpepper, 1.85/60 kilos (6.1/133)
D.Clayton, 1.87/68 kilos (6.2/150)
C.Mottram, 1.88/71.5 kilos (6.2/158)
J.Henwood, 1.93/72 kilos (6.5/160)
Joe Lemay, 1.90/70 kilos (6.4/155)
Bob Tahri, 1.90/66 kilos (6.4/146)
Robert Cheruiyot, 1.87/65 kilos (6.2/144)
If you are someone or know of someone 6.2 and above, and below "30" for 10.000 track, and faster than 2:20 for marathon, please send details to:
thank you.
Wonder what Ron Clarke would have run on a Mondo track. He didn't exactly have thin calves. That might be one factor, might not. Who knows? Mottram has balls, but he also has talent. There's a larger pool of talent than most expect, but we have a very low number of real, hard core participants. The fact that caucasians generally mature more slowly than Africans might also discourage some people in that it generally takes longer to develop if you are a Westerner, but not always of course (we don't have to get into those Kenyan and Ethiopian 'juniors' who are closer to 25 than 19, that's not the point).
Webb will undoubtedly run sub 13, he isn't thin calved. Teg will break 13, and he looks big compared to a lot of runners.
One thing is comparing a high school in the US to other schools - at that level it is just part of having enough runners around,good coach and train hard.
But at world class it is a whole other thing. You need all aspects of it : including phenomenal talent.
I have trained in the US - both in high school and in college. Trained in Europe. Done hard workouts with both Bob Kennedy (when at Indiana) and with Craigh Mottram (this last summer in London+St Moritz). Plus stayed in the mountains of Kenya training for a total of 11 months, spread into 6 years. So I do have some comparison to take these views from.
I am sorry guys, it is NOT just about hard work. Like I said, the place I have seen the hardest training is not in Africa but in Europe and the US. The Africans have incredible talent - so has a guy like Craig Mottram (plus he works hard & has a smart coach).
Point is, you WILL find this talent at a far,far greater number in Kenya compared to the US because their makeup is different - just as you will find more talented sprinters in Western Africa vs. Eastern Africa.
Marius
Marius, I don't agree with you. If we do the right work we will get to where we want to go. IT depends how much we want it. Maybe some others are like me, and need more time to develop their potential. Some people don't reach their physical peak until their late thirties.
Someone else above said that we can't train like Kenyans. Well I do train like a Kenyan, and I am 44 years old. It took me a long time to learn how to do this, but I find it is really quite simple, the key is relaxed running at all speeds, not to rush the training, the speed and endurance will come when it is ready to come.
marius wrote:
Point is, you WILL find this talent at a far,far greater number in Kenya compared to the US because their makeup is different - just as you will find more talented sprinters in Western Africa vs. Eastern Africa.
Marius
Nobody is arguing that point. What they are saying is out of the runners we have, few have any interest in pursuing it 'seriously'. The fact is that most kids in the US do not try running, and most likely a high percentage of those with world class potential never even lace up a pair of running shoes. The E. Africans have a high percentage of talent, but if you think Mottram is the only one out there from outside East or North Africa with the innate talent, then you are not looking at things realistically. It's likely there are a lot of guys in Europe capable of beating your PR, but they either play soccer or XBox. Same in the US. Around most of the US, the kids are not that serious in XC or track. The reason the same schools do well year after year is that they are among the few with good programs, the very few. You have no idea what an afterthought XC and track are at most of the HS in the US.
Yeah, if you went to York and were from outside the US, it's possible you might think York is "typical". It isn't.
talent is hard work wrote:
Ryan Hall's run is certainly a breakthrough for him. But should we really be shocked? When I read the news, I was more relieved than shocked, good for him I thought, now perhaps others will be inspired by that run.
The numbers of non Africans doing World class performances are bound to be very low because the sheer number of African runners who are desperate to make it means that many of them will succeed, but it's wrong to think that they are better than the rest of us.
Talent is not hard work. Not at all. The two aren't even connected in any way whatsoever.
Talent is TALENT. You either have it or you don't. You have a set amount of talent for anything you ever do from the moment you are born.
Ability is what you do with the talent. Someone with MORE talent may have less ability because they don't practice or train or whatever. Ability is what you can DO with the talent.
You cannot change your talent level. You can though change your ability level. Training is the only way to find out how much talent you have. A person does not become more talented the more they train. A person shows more ability themore they train.
The rub is that you never know how much talent you have until you exhaust all ways to unlock what you might have. Even then, you can never be fully sure that you did the right things to unlock the talent. Maybe you did the exact right things and unlocked all the talent you ever had. Maybe you didn't.
marius wrote:
Point is, you WILL find this talent at a far,far greater number in Kenya compared to the US because their makeup is different - just as you will find more talented sprinters in Western Africa vs. Eastern Africa.
Darius Zorn wrote:
Nobody is arguing that point.
Actually, plenty of people on this thread ARE arguing that point, including the poster directly above you. He believes that "talent is hard work", and that success in distance running is purely a matter doing the right work, and doing it hard enough.
Your point -- that talent in other places, particularly the U.S. and Europe, is often wasted -- is generally agreed, I think. Marius might disagree: he suggests that a large proportion of talent is wasted even in Kenya, where running isn't as culturally ingrained as we outsiders think. It's an interesting point, and reasonable people could disagree about it.
But one thing is for sure: talent is more than just hard work.
Do American sprinters "do the right work" compared to the rest of the world?
Do the Fench runners of Morrocan decent train harder/do the right work compared to thier French counterparts?
Why dont some Kenyans choose the sprints instead of distance?
Why dont the Nigerians or other West Africans choose distance running?
Do the British sprinters of African decent train harder/do the right work compared other brits? Same question for the French/Brazilians/Canadians???
Why are there so many Samoans in the NFL relative to thier numbers?
Are you the only one training like a Kenyan in America? or just you and some of the top elite runners who "really want it"? Why dont people just run relaxed like you and let the sub 13 come?
When I gave my opinion on a distance runner I am talking about the perfect specimen. Of course there are big men who have run very well and they had fairly large calves. In that they did run well meant that they used their genetic talents and did the work to bring their bodies to a fitness so they could run fast times. In 64 I was trying to do workouts that no one else in the world could do.I don't know if I accomplished that as everything was very secretive and no one was publishing their workouts. When I ran twenty times 400 meters with three in sixty seconds and each fourth in 58 on a cinder track with 60 yards walk and 60 yards jog back to the start, I believed no one could match that workout. I always ran the 20th one all out and always did :54 something. I believe based on the last one I could have run 24 or maybe a few more if I would have kept the same pace. I did this every other Sunday from May until September. So I believe work is important as long as it is the right type of work. By the way I never did a long run in 1964. My longest run was 400 meters.That must blow a lot of theories. I believe short intervals are just as good as long as the recovery is short which means the heartrate stays high. there were times when I was doing fast 200's my heart rate would go to 230 bpm.
But back to the perfect specimen. If we were to put together the perfect distance runner I would choose a body with small calves, slight upper body, weighing approximately 120 pounds and 5 feet 6 inches tall. the muscle structure would be 70 to 75% slow twitch so there would be enough fast twitch for a good finish. He would have to have dedication and a mental drive that would allow him to push through high levels of discomfort. (I believe everyone is different and when a person believes he can put up with more discomfort than some one else, it may not be true.) Pain threshhold would be an interesting study. I do believe that constantly driving the body through pain (discomfort) allows the mind to accept more. That is one reason I believe interval training with the Igloi method is so valuable.
Mr.Schul, what do you think of the Lydiard method, considering your training differed so much from it?
And yes, I realize that this go off on a different tangent, but whatever.
Sir,
Is your statement intended to be with utmost certainty true?
F*** you.
Yeah. Because he couldn't have possibly done work before those triathlons to be competitive enough..goddamn, I bet he just f***in flopped out of bed one day and said jesus, i think i'd like to swim, bike, and run all at once!