He's the greatest winner in NBA history. If you're talking Greatest of ALL TIME, his accomplishments shouldn't be dismissed.
What percentage of people today who know basketball are old enough to remember watching Russell play?
I think there is always a reluctance to give a nod to players that benefited from a very clear advantage of not playing against the best. League was mostly white for a long time. Wilt had a huge advantage. Kareem's era was more fair. But I for one am not inclined to give a best of all time tag to players that are relatively dominant in one aspect of the game. I mean, there was 6 yr-ish span where Shaq was literally unguardable. They invented hack-a-shaq because it was 100% points when he got the ball in the middle. People that didn't witness that time just don't know. Kareem was transformative. Oscar AVERAGED a triple double for a career! But when asked, people (ex players) still say MJ on the eye test/ 'chips. LJ on eye test/career accomplishments/ 'chips with different coaches and players.
Drexler and Hakeem got their second ring the year Jordan’s Bulls lost to Orlando.
That’s a half truth. Jordan came back from baseball with 17 games left in the season. Even Phil Jackson said his training in baseball had to “be undone” and that he needed months to get into basketball shape. Can’t really count that as a win for Orlando against peak MJ.
He had been back for 2 months and averaged 32/7/5 in the playoffs on 51% eFg%. He was back. Orlando was just better.
LeBron cares way more about individual stats. I just saw it again. End of first quarter tonight. LeBron dribbled out the clock and then heaved a full court shot after time expired. He knew what he was doing. He didn’t want the missed FG in his stat line. The GOAT wouldn’t care about that.
Well actually, this year the NBA implemented a new Heave Rule, that shots over 36 feet with under 3 seconds left in a quarter/half/game are only counted as a Team missed FG, not an individual missed FG.
2/3s of the players in LeBron's draft have already died of old age and four others are wasting away at memory care facilities while he's still fighting it out in the second round of the playoffs.
That’s a half truth. Jordan came back from baseball with 17 games left in the season. Even Phil Jackson said his training in baseball had to “be undone” and that he needed months to get into basketball shape. Can’t really count that as a win for Orlando against peak MJ.
He had been back for 2 months and averaged 32/7/5 in the playoffs on 51% eFg%. He was back. Orlando was just better.
Jordan still had his raw skills, but he didn't have basketball stamina, and he didn't have nearly enough time to build chemistry with his new teammates. You can see the evidence of that in his lower than usual advance stats and his uncharacteristically high 4.1 turnovers per game in those playoffs.
LeBron cares way more about individual stats. I just saw it again. End of first quarter tonight. LeBron dribbled out the clock and then heaved a full court shot after time expired. He knew what he was doing. He didn’t want the missed FG in his stat line. The GOAT wouldn’t care about that.
Well actually, this year the NBA implemented a new Heave Rule, that shots over 36 feet with under 3 seconds left in a quarter/half/game are only counted as a Team missed FG, not an individual missed FG.
So actually, he was thinking about the Team.
LOL…yes that was noted, but if you are thinking about the team you want to try to score and get fouled.
He had been back for 2 months and averaged 32/7/5 in the playoffs on 51% eFg%. He was back. Orlando was just better.
Jordan still had his raw skills, but he didn't have basketball stamina, and he didn't have nearly enough time to build chemistry with his new teammates. You can see the evidence of that in his lower than usual advance stats and his uncharacteristically high 4.1 turnovers per game in those playoffs.
He had been back for 2 months and averaged 32/7/5 in the playoffs on 51% eFg%. He was back. Orlando was just better.
Jordan still had his raw skills, but he didn't have basketball stamina, and he didn't have nearly enough time to build chemistry with his new teammates. You can see the evidence of that in his lower than usual advance stats and his uncharacteristically high 4.1 turnovers per game in those playoffs.
He must have had chemistry in the regular season where he averaged a career low in TO/game and TOV%
Regardless, the Bulls won two fewer games the season after Jordan left. And when he did come back, they exited the playoffs in the same round as the year without him (dominated by Orlando).
Jordan still had his raw skills, but he didn't have basketball stamina, and he didn't have nearly enough time to build chemistry with his new teammates. You can see the evidence of that in his lower than usual advance stats and his uncharacteristically high 4.1 turnovers per game in those playoffs.
He must have had chemistry in the regular season where he averaged a career low in TO/game and TOV%
Regardless, the Bulls won two fewer games the season after Jordan left. And when he did come back, they exited the playoffs in the same round as the year without him (dominated by Orlando).
Don’t you know that only Jordan’s wins count and only LeBron’s losses count?
Could it because of his little tv appearance "I'm taking my talents to miami", the false flag at his home on the gate, his tweet to his millions of followers demonizing an innocent man before one fact came out, the nepotism bronny, and of course his whiny antics on the court?
Ooops. Forgot another option, when he tried to trademark Taco Tuesday. LOL. He thought he came up with that? 23 GOAT............
LeBron cares way more about individual stats. I just saw it again. End of first quarter tonight. LeBron dribbled out the clock and then heaved a full court shot after time expired. He knew what he was doing. He didn’t want the missed FG in his stat line. The GOAT wouldn’t care about that.
Currently watching Lakers v OKC game 2 and Jesus man, OKC are ruthless and the refs are oblivious lol
He had been back for 2 months and averaged 32/7/5 in the playoffs on 51% eFg%. He was back. Orlando was just better.
Jordan still had his raw skills, but he didn't have basketball stamina, and he didn't have nearly enough time to build chemistry with his new teammates. You can see the evidence of that in his lower than usual advance stats and his uncharacteristically high 4.1 turnovers per game in those playoffs.
The popular narrative has always given Jordan a generous pass for that loss (acting like they went 6 for 6) for the rust reason you’re presenting. There’s definitely some common sense validity to it.
But how about the fact that the Bulls’ leading rebounder and clear3rd best player (2nd best in ‘93-‘94) from their first championship through ‘93-‘94, Horace Grant, was now playing for the other team. In that Chicago/Orlando series, Shaq averaged 13.2 rebounds, Grant averaged 11.0 rebounds, and Pippen was the Bulls’ leading rebounder at 9.7 (with Toni Kukoc 2nd at 7.0). Then in the offseason the Bulls acquired a top-5 rebounder ever in Dennis Rodman (in a trade for Will Perdue?!) and voila, the Bulls were champs again.
Based on what I see on Facebook and LetsRun, the LeBron hate is a genuine sociological phenomenon. If you wanna make some “hot take” that LeBron only ranks 4th or 5th all time, fine, but there seem to be millions who have convinced themselves he was never a good basketball player. It’s crazy.
LeBron brought some of this level of hate/attention on himself, by doing things like making his decision to leave Cleveland and play in Miami a public media spectacle.
Some of the current LeBron hate is LA Laker/LA hate due to the inordinate amount of attention the media (and NBA itself) gives to the team and city he plays for now.
There is also negative public reaction to the King James label, LeBron did not invent that but he embraces it and uses that as his social media handle. Nike has amplified that and there is some Nike hate...)
Some people hate him for the stance he sometimes takes on social/political issues.
Some of the LeBron hate is Lebron fatigue. He has received national media attention for over a quarter century.
To his credit he has mellowed out as he has aged, restricts his intensity to the court, and is more humble now.
LeBron cares way more about individual stats. I just saw it again. End of first quarter tonight. LeBron dribbled out the clock and then heaved a full court shot after time expired. He knew what he was doing. He didn’t want the missed FG in his stat line. The GOAT wouldn’t care about that.
No he doesn't. He's not the GOAT because he's not 6-0 in the NBA Finals after going through all the best teams of his era.
LeBron cares way more about individual stats. I just saw it again. End of first quarter tonight. LeBron dribbled out the clock and then heaved a full court shot after time expired. He knew what he was doing. He didn’t want the missed FG in his stat line. The GOAT wouldn’t care about that.
No he doesn't. He's not the GOAT because he's not 6-0 in the NBA Finals after going through all the best teams of his era.
He's in the conversation. He has the most points scored in the NBA ever - he has championships. He just isn't Jordan, tho he's come closer than anyone else.
My point was that instead of discussing the new basketball going on right now, people want to talk about an old, beat-to-death, cable TV debate-show topic featuring two players who never faced each other from two different eras. You can definitely do both, I’m just questioning why you’d want to waste your time talking about some certified dumb sh*t when we’ve got real games to talk about.
Go ahead though, I’m sure you have a fresh take on the LeBron versus Jordan debate that everyone wants to hear.
Don't be a topic nazi. People can discuss this topic if they want. There are other topics on the front page right now that have been discussed many times before. Super shoes, moderation policies, gas prices, etc. If you're not interested in the GOAT debate, here's a pro tip for you: Don't click on this thread again. Create your own thread on the real games you want to talk about.
Wait, people can discuss the topic if they want?! Wow, thanks for enlightening me, I had no idea. 🙄
It’s a bit pathetic that people are sensitive enough to interpret someone judging them for talking about some lame sh*t as being told they’re not allowed to talk about it. Nah dude, you’re clearly allowed to talk about whatever topic you want including this one. It’s still lame and you’re still a square for thinking that the GOAT debate is remotely interesting.