I hate how you can finish Top 3 at trials and not go. I think if your country “unlocks” a certain number of spots, the top 3 at trials should go regardless. Why else have trials? Yeah, it’d suck for the guys who unlocked the slots to get pipped at the line in a trials race, but that’s racin!
YES.
For the record, we had a call with World Athletics this week where we discussed ideas to help the sport moving forward.
I told them: "The reason why I jumped on this call is specifically so I could tell you I think the #1 thing that needs to be done that is a simple solution is to allocate the spots to the country if they hold a trials."
And then I told them how it was crazy how Nathan Green had to chase a qualifier after World Indoors. I HAVE OFFICIALLY BEGGED THEM to do what they did for the marathon Trials for the track trials.
Thank god we have a trials system or Molly Seidel wouldn't have an Olympic medal.
Can someone please tell me about a US athlete who would have definitely won a medal at the Olympics if they'd made the team but didn't because they had a bad Trials. Dan O'Brien yes. Who else? The number of times the opposite is true is way more common.
The problem in the USA there is so much depth that difference between the top runner and the 10th runner is pretty small. Other countries don't have the depth and usually have a clear 1 or 2 top runners in specific events.
I could maybe see the argument for the top 2 getting spots then the 3rd being based on ranking or something. Maybe like a DQ situation (false start, falling), but the current system is fine and gives us the second best track meet of the year besides the Olympics or Worlds for USA track fans. Plus the argument against the DQ concern, is most top runners double at USAs (800m, 1500m or 1500m, 5K or 10k, 5K, etc same for sprints)
No "selection body" should ever pick the team. Podium at the trials and you go. It is that simple. Showing up when it counts is what the sport is about. Imagine Moneybags Max picking teams...good lord!
Do you know who the top 3 in the US right now are in the men's 800 world rankings?
#1 Josh Hoey #2 Bryce Hoppel #3 Donavan Brazier
There are plenty of reasons to hate the WA ranking system, but this is maybe the worst example. I am fully aware that Cooper literally just won a World Championship. If you told me to pick the top 3 active 800 runners in the US, I would still pick the 3 on this list. Cooper would be 4. What he did is impressive, and I commend him on a brilliant indoor season. I am a huge fan of the success he’s having. Let’s not pretend that every top athlete takes Indoor seriously and prioritizes it in their training.
Calm down, Rojo. Citius said at the top of their editorial that they just wanted to start a discussion. I happen to think they're wrong (to paraphrase a famous quote, the trials system is the worst possible system - except for all the others), but it's worthwhile to have the conversation. There are definitely problems with a trials system (falls, injuries, etc.), but it's the most objective. It helps that the US is deep enough that's there's basically zero chance that all 3 qualifiers in a given event are no-chancers. In smaller countries with less talent, a trials meet would be an unnecessary risk if there are athletes who are clearly the best in their country.
Someone remind me not to read their stuff for at least a month. They need to be put into a corner and have timeout for at least 30 days after coming up with an idea this dumb:
Citius wrote:
You could, for the sake of argument, view national governing bodies’ role in the process as more of a middleman with a frustrating tendency toward inconsistency. Rather than Team GB holding out developing athletes, shouldn’t it be up to World Athletics to say who’s invited? Instead of Kenya not announcing the Trials location until a couple weeks before, World Athletics would simply give the Kenyan federation a list of accepted names. In lieu of Australia hosting qualifying meets five months in advance, World Athletics could save them the trouble.
Rather than leave everything up to Seb Coe sitting alone in a room with a whiteboard and a telephone, WA could simply double- or triple-down on its touted world rankings system.
The top three ranked eligible athletes from each country are selected. Hard stop.
What's crazy is they compare their idea to the NFL system. It's a TERRIBLE analogy.
Citius wrote:
Every NFL team understands what needs to happen to play in the Super Bowl; each division doesn’t set its own playoff rules. Similarly, track and field could benefit from a lot more international consistency about “the rules” – and whether or not you think World Athletics should hold all the power, they have the ability to create a system that’s more streamlined for global championships to come.
They must not watch or understand sports.
Yes, comparing Olympics to Super Bowl is fine. We agree on that. But the playoffs are the US Trials. And to get to the Super Bowl, you have to do well in the playoffs.
Their (dumb) idea would be the equivalent of putting the top 2 teams from some sort of power rankings database (probably DVOA) without even holding playoffs or looking at their actual record.
Here is why Citius idea is stupid.
I don't care what your world ranking is. I care if you are in current form. Current form > world ranking.
Do you know who the top 3 in the US right now are in the men's 800 world rankings?
#1 Josh Hoey #2 Bryce Hoppel #3 Donavan Brazier
What a joke.
So Cooper Lutkenhaus wouldn't be on the team?
In the women's 5000 and 10,000, Jane H would be nowhere to be seen. Molly Seidel wouldn't be an Olympic medallist. -Rojo
I think a problem with choosing the team based on rankings and time performance is that you have plenty of cases where a runner over-performs in a rabbited race on the Euro circuit or a domestic time trial. You can have a hypothetical example where say Josh Hoey is pulled to a 1:41 with pacing lights, rabbits, and Wanyonyi. But Cooper L has school and maybe can’t travel without his parents since they are working or whatever reason, and can’t have the same opportunities during the season as Hoey. So Cooper defeats Hoey again at USAs but doesn’t make the team because it’s won in a tactical race in 1:45 and Cooper doesn’t have the standard. But we have every reason to believe that Cooper could have run 1:41 given the same opportunities; he beat someone in 1:41 shape. So the current system of selection is indeed unfair and doesn’t fully account for missed opportunities. It indeed looks developed by data analytics who don’t understand the sport and don’t understand the nuances or how it works.
Face it. Citius is a joke and no one takes them seriously. Bunch of unprofessional basement dwelling guys with nothing else going for them. Why anyone still bothers to listen to them is beyond me. It’s like high school all over again.
It is a tricky thing. At World's do we need a country sending someone who is 100th best in their event because they are in a country that gets a spot while in another country the 4th best in the world sits at home? Maybe World's should just be for the Top 30 (or whatever number) in the world only?
Also, if the process changed, athletes would adapt to the new incentive structure so Connor would do what is necessary.
I’d concur. Citius has a fantastic idea that would fix the quality of teams. Would you rather have someone who is a flash in the pan and got lucky, or a runner who earned their spot through racing and winning through world rankings. I would go a step further and transform the diamond league into a set of grand slams (similar to GST) so that we have more meets that matter. USA’s can be one of those meets too. Having a trials is the dumbest idea ever and can destroy athletes lives. I will admit though that the current world rankings are slightly flawed. They should take into account competition rather than automatically giving someone a ton of points because they placed high in a weak race in Rabat or china. Hype up these meets and make the stars show up.
This would have kept young Lutkenhaus off of the American team for Tokyo, as he was ranked 64th in the world going into the World Championships, yes?
Hoey ran an awful race, he would have done far better than CL at Worlds.
I hate how you can finish Top 3 at trials and not go. I think if your country “unlocks” a certain number of spots, the top 3 at trials should go regardless. Why else have trials? Yeah, it’d suck for the guys who unlocked the slots to get pipped at the line in a trials race, but that’s racin!
YES.
For the record, we had a call with World Athletics this week where we discussed ideas to help the sport moving forward.
I told them: "The reason why I jumped on this call is specifically so I could tell you I think the #1 thing that needs to be done that is a simple solution is to allocate the spots to the country if they hold a trials."
And then I told them how it was crazy how Nathan Green had to chase a qualifier after World Indoors. I HAVE OFFICIALLY BEGGED THEM to do what they did for the marathon Trials for the track trials.
Thank god we have a trials system or Molly Seidel wouldn't have an Olympic medal.
Can someone please tell me about a US athlete who would have definitely won a medal at the Olympics if they'd made the team but didn't because they had a bad Trials. Dan O'Brien yes. Who else? The number of times the opposite is true is way more common.
Why should our top guys have to peak for the trials and throw away their chance to medal just to beat some guy with a pr 2 secs slower who has never even placed top 5 in a diamond league race?
Someone remind me not to read their stuff for at least a month. They need to be put into a corner and have timeout for at least 30 days after coming up with an idea this dumb:
What's crazy is they compare their idea to the NFL system. It's a TERRIBLE analogy.
They must not watch or understand sports.
Yes, comparing Olympics to Super Bowl is fine. We agree on that. But the playoffs are the US Trials. And to get to the Super Bowl, you have to do well in the playoffs.
Their (dumb) idea would be the equivalent of putting the top 2 teams from some sort of power rankings database (probably DVOA) without even holding playoffs or looking at their actual record.
Here is why Citius idea is stupid.
I don't care what your world ranking is. I care if you are in current form. Current form > world ranking.
Do you know who the top 3 in the US right now are in the men's 800 world rankings?
#1 Josh Hoey #2 Bryce Hoppel #3 Donavan Brazier
What a joke.
So Cooper Lutkenhaus wouldn't be on the team?
In the women's 5000 and 10,000, Jane H would be nowhere to be seen. Molly Seidel wouldn't be an Olympic medallist. -Rojo
I think a problem with choosing the team based on rankings and time performance is that you have plenty of cases where a runner over-performs in a rabbited race on the Euro circuit or a domestic time trial. You can have a hypothetical example where say Josh Hoey is pulled to a 1:41 with pacing lights, rabbits, and Wanyonyi. But Cooper L has school and maybe can’t travel without his parents since they are working or whatever reason, and can’t have the same opportunities during the season as Hoey. So Cooper defeats Hoey again at USAs but doesn’t make the team because it’s won in a tactical race in 1:45 and Cooper doesn’t have the standard. But we have every reason to believe that Cooper could have run 1:41 given the same opportunities; he beat someone in 1:41 shape. So the current system of selection is indeed unfair and doesn’t fully account for missed opportunities. It indeed looks developed by data analytics who don’t understand the sport and don’t understand the nuances or how it works.
Beating someone in a 1:45 race doesn’t mean you are automatically a 1:41 guy. Josh Hoey worked his butt off the entire season and he has one off race and now he is replaced by some HSer? That’s a terrible system. I can agree that some DLs are overrated but if you can’t show up to important meets you can F off about going to a global championship.
For the record, we had a call with World Athletics this week where we discussed ideas to help the sport moving forward.
I told them: "The reason why I jumped on this call is specifically so I could tell you I think the #1 thing that needs to be done that is a simple solution is to allocate the spots to the country if they hold a trials."
And then I told them how it was crazy how Nathan Green had to chase a qualifier after World Indoors. I HAVE OFFICIALLY BEGGED THEM to do what they did for the marathon Trials for the track trials.
Thank god we have a trials system or Molly Seidel wouldn't have an Olympic medal.
Can someone please tell me about a US athlete who would have definitely won a medal at the Olympics if they'd made the team but didn't because they had a bad Trials. Dan O'Brien yes. Who else? The number of times the opposite is true is way more common.
Why should our top guys have to peak for the trials and throw away their chance to medal just to beat some guy with a pr 2 secs slower who has never even placed top 5 in a diamond league race?
Exactly. It’s quite sad really. A sport this reminds me of is chess where they have a brutal candidates tournament before deciding who gets to face off against the defending champion. Such a terrible system. The GOAT magnus carlsen opposes this and advocates for the candidates tournament to actually be the deciding factor for World Champion.
Someone remind me not to read their stuff for at least a month. They need to be put into a corner and have timeout for at least 30 days after coming up with an idea this dumb:
Citius wrote:
You could, for the sake of argument, view national governing bodies’ role in the process as more of a middleman with a frustrating tendency toward inconsistency. Rather than Team GB holding out developing athletes, shouldn’t it be up to World Athletics to say who’s invited? Instead of Kenya not announcing the Trials location until a couple weeks before, World Athletics would simply give the Kenyan federation a list of accepted names. In lieu of Australia hosting qualifying meets five months in advance, World Athletics could save them the trouble.
Rather than leave everything up to Seb Coe sitting alone in a room with a whiteboard and a telephone, WA could simply double- or triple-down on its touted world rankings system.
The top three ranked eligible athletes from each country are selected. Hard stop.
What's crazy is they compare their idea to the NFL system. It's a TERRIBLE analogy.
Citius wrote:
Every NFL team understands what needs to happen to play in the Super Bowl; each division doesn’t set its own playoff rules. Similarly, track and field could benefit from a lot more international consistency about “the rules” – and whether or not you think World Athletics should hold all the power, they have the ability to create a system that’s more streamlined for global championships to come.
They must not watch or understand sports.
Yes, comparing Olympics to Super Bowl is fine. We agree on that. But the playoffs are the US Trials. And to get to the Super Bowl, you have to do well in the playoffs.
Their (dumb) idea would be the equivalent of putting the top 2 teams from some sort of power rankings database (probably DVOA) without even holding playoffs or looking at their actual record.
Here is why Citius idea is stupid.
I don't care what your world ranking is. I care if you are in current form. Current form > world ranking.
Do you know who the top 3 in the US right now are in the men's 800 world rankings?
#1 Josh Hoey #2 Bryce Hoppel #3 Donavan Brazier
What a joke.
So Cooper Lutkenhaus wouldn't be on the team?
In the women's 5000 and 10,000, Jane H would be nowhere to be seen. Molly Seidel wouldn't be an Olympic medallist. -Rojo
The mens marathon Trials in 2024 was the most unfair in history. The only reason there were 2 spots is 2 guys went out and ran the Q time! And the slackers could potentially go because they ran sub 2:11. What a farce. Fortunately the good guys went 1-2...
Get rid of the Men's Trials. Completely pointless. Especially if the Q time is sub 2:07.