Don't be so thin-skinned, after all, you know who I am, so why are you so concerned about unregistered posters like the one above. Who are you?
And anyway it was me who convinced you to not believe what the poster above believes.
Oh, I'm not concerned. I just noticed a significant uptick in the past week or so.
I still don't like this word believe -- I try to look at this topic as a science stripped of beliefs, and not use descriptions reserved for religions.
If you want partial credit, go ahead and take it, but much of what I think about blood doping and world class distance running performance actually comes from Renato, and much of what I think about all doping and top distance performances was something I confirmed by looking at top performances dating as far back as the 1960s in many distance events looking at men and women separately. What convinces me not to "believe" most posters is the inability to provide any substantial data, and the reliance on faithful assumptions and the frequent use of obvious logical fallacies.
Fair enough. The mainstream doping dogma is very much like a religious belief, I agree. For some people I suppose it is very much an unshakeable belief and some are are very puzzled to have their brelief questioned, and others very offended.
Each morning he jogged about 5 miles on a golf course and road. August 10th - 20 times 220 Av 27.45 11th - 3 miles - 14.47.6 12th - 660 - 1m27s 100yds 11s times 2 13th - 3mile - (50yd dashes) 14th - 6 times 220 - Av 26.5 15th - 20 times 440 Av 61 16th - 22 miles Waiatarua -2 hours 22 min 17th - 20 times 220 - Av 27.8 18th - 3 miles - 14.35 19th - 5 times 880 Av 2.13 20-22nd - injured leg, hard track - no training. 23rd - 22 miles - 2h 33 min 24th - 5 mile jog 25th - 27th leg still sore - no training. 28th 4 times 440 stride-outs 29th - 6 mile jog 30th - 22 miles - 2hr 23 min 31st 220 stride-outs. September 1st - 6 times 880 Av 2m10s 2nd - 6 times 440 - 58s 3rd - 1 mile - half effort - 1 mile three quarter effort 4th - 3 times 220 fast 5th 880 - cold wet conditions - 2m2s 6th - 22 miles easy 7th - 1 mile (50y dashes) 8th - three quarter mile - 880 in 1.56 and final 440 as he felt 9th - 440 - 55s - 4 times 100yds - full 10th - 2 times 1 mile - half effort. 11th - 3 times 220 - full effort 12th - 10 times 440 - av 58.5 13th - Long run 14th - 10 miles morning - 4 times 150yds - 6 times 50yds 15th - 2 times 880 - windy and wet - 2m2s and 2m 1.7 16th - 10 miles morning - 3 miles - 14m 12s 17th - 6 times 440 - 58s 18th - 3 times 220 all out. 19th - three quarter mile - 3m 0.5s 20th - 20 mile - half effort 21st - One hour jog 22nd - 6 times 220 stride outs 23rd - One hour jog 24th - Flew to Sydney - 6 times 220 stride outs 25th - 660 - 1m19s 26th - Flew Japan (jogged most mornings in Japan for 1 hour) 17th - the hour jog 28th - 20 times 220 stride outs 29th - 1 mile of 50yd dashes. 30th - three quarter mile - 2m.56s October 1st - 2 hour run - strong and even 2nd - 4 times 440 3rd - 6 times 880 - half effort - av 2m5s 4th - 1 mile - 4m2s 5th - 10 times 220 stride outs 6th - Sprint training over 150yds 7th - 800mts fast - 1.47.1 8th - 1 hour jog 9th - 880 in 50yd dashes 10th - 1 hour jog 11th - 3 times 220 full 12th - 1 hour jog 13th - half an hour jog 14th - 800mt heat - 1m49s 15th - 800mt semi - 1m46.9 16th - 800mt final - 1m45.1 17th - 1500mt heat - 3m46.6 18th - 1 hour jog 19th - 1500mt semi - 3.38.8 20th - 1 hour jog 21st - 1500mt final - 3.38.1
He did it the same way as the other athletes in the Lydiard stable in the early '60s. If you think he was doping then so was everyone else in that era. You're wrong, of course.
Bad advice from whom? They aren't taking them for medical needs or they would get a TUE. And they wouldn't be running 2:07 marathons if they had health issues.
Maybe from some combination of his coach, agent, sponsor, doctor, pharmacist, fellow athletes, forums on the internet, etc. Hard to say.
And who knows, with better training under a better coach, he might have run faster.
More suggestions: accidental ingestion from supplements, unlabelled contamination of prescribed medication, or eating meat from steroid-injected animals.
It is only bad advice if the specialists above are wrong. Since you have never acquainted yourself with these drugs, with any coach or athlete who has used them, or used them yourself you show an astonishing arrogance for one who has absolutely no experience of the kind they have. I defer to their experience but since you have a head like a pumpkin you defer to no one.
We aren't bedfellows. It escapes you that we are at completely opposed positions on doping. You have to be on one side or the other, that doping is either a serious issue in the sport or it isn't. So where are you?
Looking at it like a black and white false dichotomy just reflects shallow one-bit thinking.
First, you are wrong because I do think doping is a serious issue in the sport. I think anti-doping should be equally serious.
Second, you seem to think it all can be boiled down to one of us is right, and the other wrong for arguing the opposite. We are not having the same argument. I am not arguing the opposite -- that is just your shallow black and white false dichotomy of interpreting my requests for supporting data. You think you are right, and I think your statements are unsupported, necessarily requiring favorable inferences and faith and fallacies to bridge the gaps in the evidence and data and observations. Regarding performance, I am reserving any judgements of right or wrong until better performance data can be provided.
You don't think doping is a serious issue because you deny it is performance enhancing. It might as well be popcorn.
Your ulterior motive is obviously to continue to allow Africans to dope freely.
No it's not. I want people to learn some important things about Bioenergetics which aren't being taught in the mainstream. All we get is a lot of misinformation that contributes to the doping problem.
So what are your intentions?
They aren't being taught in the mainstream because they are crank theories. Like the moon landing in a warehouse in Arizona.
Oh, I'm not concerned. I just noticed a significant uptick in the past week or so.
I still don't like this word believe -- I try to look at this topic as a science stripped of beliefs, and not use descriptions reserved for religions.
If you want partial credit, go ahead and take it, but much of what I think about blood doping and world class distance running performance actually comes from Renato, and much of what I think about all doping and top distance performances was something I confirmed by looking at top performances dating as far back as the 1960s in many distance events looking at men and women separately. What convinces me not to "believe" most posters is the inability to provide any substantial data, and the reliance on faithful assumptions and the frequent use of obvious logical fallacies.
Fair enough. The mainstream doping dogma is very much like a religious belief, I agree. For some people I suppose it is very much an unshakeable belief and some are are very puzzled to have their brelief questioned, and others very offended.
Yours is the religious belief. It isn't science. It has no credibility outside a few nutters who espouse it and those like you who go along with it.
It is only bad advice if the specialists above are wrong. Since you have never acquainted yourself with these drugs, with any coach or athlete who has used them, or used them yourself you show an astonishing arrogance for one who has absolutely no experience of the kind they have. I defer to their experience but since you have a head like a pumpkin you defer to no one.
So at best it is just hypotheticals, and you are just choosing whoever you want to believe without really knowing their experiences.
This post was edited 2 minutes after it was posted.
Each morning he jogged about 5 miles on a golf course and road. August 10th - 20 times 220 Av 27.45 11th - 3 miles - 14.47.6 12th - 660 - 1m27s 100yds 11s times 2 13th - 3mile - (50yd dashes) 14th - 6 times 220 - Av 26.5 15th - 20 times 440 Av 61 16th - 22 miles Waiatarua -2 hours 22 min 17th - 20 times 220 - Av 27.8 18th - 3 miles - 14.35 19th - 5 times 880 Av 2.13 20-22nd - injured leg, hard track - no training. 23rd - 22 miles - 2h 33 min 24th - 5 mile jog 25th - 27th leg still sore - no training. 28th 4 times 440 stride-outs 29th - 6 mile jog 30th - 22 miles - 2hr 23 min 31st 220 stride-outs. September 1st - 6 times 880 Av 2m10s 2nd - 6 times 440 - 58s 3rd - 1 mile - half effort - 1 mile three quarter effort 4th - 3 times 220 fast 5th 880 - cold wet conditions - 2m2s 6th - 22 miles easy 7th - 1 mile (50y dashes) 8th - three quarter mile - 880 in 1.56 and final 440 as he felt 9th - 440 - 55s - 4 times 100yds - full 10th - 2 times 1 mile - half effort. 11th - 3 times 220 - full effort 12th - 10 times 440 - av 58.5 13th - Long run 14th - 10 miles morning - 4 times 150yds - 6 times 50yds 15th - 2 times 880 - windy and wet - 2m2s and 2m 1.7 16th - 10 miles morning - 3 miles - 14m 12s 17th - 6 times 440 - 58s 18th - 3 times 220 all out. 19th - three quarter mile - 3m 0.5s 20th - 20 mile - half effort 21st - One hour jog 22nd - 6 times 220 stride outs 23rd - One hour jog 24th - Flew to Sydney - 6 times 220 stride outs 25th - 660 - 1m19s 26th - Flew Japan (jogged most mornings in Japan for 1 hour) 17th - the hour jog 28th - 20 times 220 stride outs 29th - 1 mile of 50yd dashes. 30th - three quarter mile - 2m.56s October 1st - 2 hour run - strong and even 2nd - 4 times 440 3rd - 6 times 880 - half effort - av 2m5s 4th - 1 mile - 4m2s 5th - 10 times 220 stride outs 6th - Sprint training over 150yds 7th - 800mts fast - 1.47.1 8th - 1 hour jog 9th - 880 in 50yd dashes 10th - 1 hour jog 11th - 3 times 220 full 12th - 1 hour jog 13th - half an hour jog 14th - 800mt heat - 1m49s 15th - 800mt semi - 1m46.9 16th - 800mt final - 1m45.1 17th - 1500mt heat - 3m46.6 18th - 1 hour jog 19th - 1500mt semi - 3.38.8 20th - 1 hour jog 21st - 1500mt final - 3.38.1
He did it the same way as the other athletes in the Lydiard stable in the early '60s. If you think he was doping then so was everyone else in that era. You're wrong, of course.
Since you believe everyone at the top is doping how did Snell do it without drugs?
Each morning he jogged about 5 miles on a golf course and road. August 10th - 20 times 220 Av 27.45 11th - 3 miles - 14.47.6 12th - 660 - 1m27s 100yds 11s times 2 13th - 3mile - (50yd dashes) 14th - 6 times 220 - Av 26.5 15th - 20 times 440 Av 61 16th - 22 miles Waiatarua -2 hours 22 min 17th - 20 times 220 - Av 27.8 18th - 3 miles - 14.35 19th - 5 times 880 Av 2.13 20-22nd - injured leg, hard track - no training. 23rd - 22 miles - 2h 33 min 24th - 5 mile jog 25th - 27th leg still sore - no training. 28th 4 times 440 stride-outs 29th - 6 mile jog 30th - 22 miles - 2hr 23 min 31st 220 stride-outs. September 1st - 6 times 880 Av 2m10s 2nd - 6 times 440 - 58s 3rd - 1 mile - half effort - 1 mile three quarter effort 4th - 3 times 220 fast 5th 880 - cold wet conditions - 2m2s 6th - 22 miles easy 7th - 1 mile (50y dashes) 8th - three quarter mile - 880 in 1.56 and final 440 as he felt 9th - 440 - 55s - 4 times 100yds - full 10th - 2 times 1 mile - half effort. 11th - 3 times 220 - full effort 12th - 10 times 440 - av 58.5 13th - Long run 14th - 10 miles morning - 4 times 150yds - 6 times 50yds 15th - 2 times 880 - windy and wet - 2m2s and 2m 1.7 16th - 10 miles morning - 3 miles - 14m 12s 17th - 6 times 440 - 58s 18th - 3 times 220 all out. 19th - three quarter mile - 3m 0.5s 20th - 20 mile - half effort 21st - One hour jog 22nd - 6 times 220 stride outs 23rd - One hour jog 24th - Flew to Sydney - 6 times 220 stride outs 25th - 660 - 1m19s 26th - Flew Japan (jogged most mornings in Japan for 1 hour) 17th - the hour jog 28th - 20 times 220 stride outs 29th - 1 mile of 50yd dashes. 30th - three quarter mile - 2m.56s October 1st - 2 hour run - strong and even 2nd - 4 times 440 3rd - 6 times 880 - half effort - av 2m5s 4th - 1 mile - 4m2s 5th - 10 times 220 stride outs 6th - Sprint training over 150yds 7th - 800mts fast - 1.47.1 8th - 1 hour jog 9th - 880 in 50yd dashes 10th - 1 hour jog 11th - 3 times 220 full 12th - 1 hour jog 13th - half an hour jog 14th - 800mt heat - 1m49s 15th - 800mt semi - 1m46.9 16th - 800mt final - 1m45.1 17th - 1500mt heat - 3m46.6 18th - 1 hour jog 19th - 1500mt semi - 3.38.8 20th - 1 hour jog 21st - 1500mt final - 3.38.1
Each morning he jogged about 5 miles on a golf course and road. August 10th - 20 times 220 Av 27.45 11th - 3 miles - 14.47.6 12th - 660 - 1m27s 100yds 11s times 2 13th - 3mile - (50yd dashes) 14th - 6 times 220 - Av 26.5 15th - 20 times 440 Av 61 16th - 22 miles Waiatarua -2 hours 22 min 17th - 20 times 220 - Av 27.8 18th - 3 miles - 14.35 19th - 5 times 880 Av 2.13 20-22nd - injured leg, hard track - no training. 23rd - 22 miles - 2h 33 min 24th - 5 mile jog 25th - 27th leg still sore - no training. 28th 4 times 440 stride-outs 29th - 6 mile jog 30th - 22 miles - 2hr 23 min 31st 220 stride-outs. September 1st - 6 times 880 Av 2m10s 2nd - 6 times 440 - 58s 3rd - 1 mile - half effort - 1 mile three quarter effort 4th - 3 times 220 fast 5th 880 - cold wet conditions - 2m2s 6th - 22 miles easy 7th - 1 mile (50y dashes) 8th - three quarter mile - 880 in 1.56 and final 440 as he felt 9th - 440 - 55s - 4 times 100yds - full 10th - 2 times 1 mile - half effort. 11th - 3 times 220 - full effort 12th - 10 times 440 - av 58.5 13th - Long run 14th - 10 miles morning - 4 times 150yds - 6 times 50yds 15th - 2 times 880 - windy and wet - 2m2s and 2m 1.7 16th - 10 miles morning - 3 miles - 14m 12s 17th - 6 times 440 - 58s 18th - 3 times 220 all out. 19th - three quarter mile - 3m 0.5s 20th - 20 mile - half effort 21st - One hour jog 22nd - 6 times 220 stride outs 23rd - One hour jog 24th - Flew to Sydney - 6 times 220 stride outs 25th - 660 - 1m19s 26th - Flew Japan (jogged most mornings in Japan for 1 hour) 17th - the hour jog 28th - 20 times 220 stride outs 29th - 1 mile of 50yd dashes. 30th - three quarter mile - 2m.56s October 1st - 2 hour run - strong and even 2nd - 4 times 440 3rd - 6 times 880 - half effort - av 2m5s 4th - 1 mile - 4m2s 5th - 10 times 220 stride outs 6th - Sprint training over 150yds 7th - 800mts fast - 1.47.1 8th - 1 hour jog 9th - 880 in 50yd dashes 10th - 1 hour jog 11th - 3 times 220 full 12th - 1 hour jog 13th - half an hour jog 14th - 800mt heat - 1m49s 15th - 800mt semi - 1m46.9 16th - 800mt final - 1m45.1 17th - 1500mt heat - 3m46.6 18th - 1 hour jog 19th - 1500mt semi - 3.38.8 20th - 1 hour jog 21st - 1500mt final - 3.38.1
If you think he was doping then so was everyone else in that era. You're wrong, of course.
Says the biggest doping accuser in the history of the sport. You can't know if he or others from that era were doping. Yet you claim to know it - liar.
I'm not arguing about the training. I'm asking Mr Knowitall to justify his drug obsession by pointing out the disparity between his beliefs and the reality of training efficacy.
Steroids are given to people with muscle wasting and to burn victims with great success. People with kidney disease are given EPO and Mircera with great success. If these people are helped by these drugs, then there’s a chance those effects might just help athletes as well. There’s actually no ‘might’ about it. But people want to obfuscate because it’s becoming more and more clear that Africa has the worst doping problem in athletics. Fact. They were right. Your agenda is to cover for Africans.
Yes those drugs are effective for patients who have a deficit. Why is that so hard to understand?
Also, do you really not know the physiological reason why Kenyans do so well in endurance running?
It's really simple. But go ahead and give me the broscience andwer?
Stop pretending that you're anti-doping. You're being disingenuous by not engaging in some really basic phyiology. You're just adding to the problem.
Awfully weak deflection. You couldn’t really answer him. A different poster pointed out what your real goal is, and it’s now obvious he was right. You want to pull the heat off the massive amount of Africans who are doping - and they dope because it works. You know it, we can see it, you have a “thing” for the Africans, much like a poster on this site who has a thing for Russell Wilson and other black athletes. Just admit it and move on.
Yes those drugs are effective for patients who have a deficit. Why is that so hard to understand?
Also, do you really not know the physiological reason why Kenyans do so well in endurance running?
It's really simple. But go ahead and give me the broscience andwer?
Stop pretending that you're anti-doping. You're being disingenuous by not engaging in some really basic phyiology. You're just adding to the problem.
Awfully weak deflection. You couldn’t really answer him. A different poster pointed out what your real goal is, and it’s now obvious he was right. You want to pull the heat off the massive amount of Africans who are doping - and they dope because it works. You know it, we can see it, you have a “thing” for the Africans, much like a poster on this site who has a thing for Russell Wilson and other black athletes. Just admit it and move on.
Nope. Doping is broscience. Deal with it.
If you really want to argue, then first you have to explain why Kenyan runners are more efficient?
Awfully weak deflection. You couldn’t really answer him. A different poster pointed out what your real goal is, and it’s now obvious he was right. You want to pull the heat off the massive amount of Africans who are doping - and they dope because it works. You know it, we can see it, you have a “thing” for the Africans, much like a poster on this site who has a thing for Russell Wilson and other black athletes. Just admit it and move on.
Which part needs an answer? The speculative parts?
He said "there's a chance those effects might just help". This is personal speculation. In fact, outside of giving drugs to the weak and injured, his whole post was personal speculation.
The answer is it is just one poster's imagination.
He did it the same way as the other athletes in the Lydiard stable in the early '60s. If you think he was doping then so was everyone else in that era. You're wrong, of course.
Since you believe everyone at the top is doping how did Snell do it without drugs?
I don't believe that. Also, drugs weren't known in distance running in the early '60s. But you don't know anything outside your crank theories.
If you think he was doping then so was everyone else in that era. You're wrong, of course.
Says the biggest doping accuser in the history of the sport. You can't know if he or others from that era were doping. Yet you claim to know it - liar.
List the md and distance runners known to have doped in the '50s and early '60s. You know nothing about the history of the sport and the role of doping.
I'm not arguing about the training. I'm asking Mr Knowitall to justify his drug obsession by pointing out the disparity between his beliefs and the reality of training efficacy.
Drugs are known to be widespread in the sport today - in fact in all sports. They weren't known to be present in md and distance running 60-70 years ago. You are clueless. The formula Snell followed was also applied amongst all of Lydiard's athletes.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.