After I sit down at my other restaurant and eat extra large order of delicious Takoyaki Octopus In Fried Balls, I make simulation on lacctic website: Marquette men vs WIAC. Very interesting, results say Marquette fourth about equal to Whitewater which make sense if think about.
I pulled up letsrun's favorite d1 school to criticize (one that, although having respectable results, does underperform by a pretty big amount relative to the caliber of athlete they bring in). and then I searched a certain California (also d1) for good measure as I've also seen it criticized a fair amount as well, for pretty similar reasons (underperforming and a certain former coach). Both handily were better than La Crosse in track. And they're ranked both about #60 for xc in knockout. I think they'd beat La Crosse in xc
2025 outdoor school leading times (the d1 vs La Crosse vs the Cali d1):
800: 1:46.99 vs 1:49.11 vs 1:47.60
1500: 3:38.08 vs 3:47.31 vs 3:40.96
5000: 13:53.13 vs 13:56.79 vs 13:37.12
10000: 29:34.58 vs 28:53.93 vs None
3000SC: 9:32.01 vs 8:49.74 vs 9:29.26
hint: both of these are around the 60 ish rank in team knockout. And conferences are ACC and Big 10
This is an anonymous message board just name the other schools.
I didn't see anyone link to the overall men's rankings in LAACTiC. I spy 1x NJCAA, 3x DIII, 8x DII in the top 100 teams. Surprisingly, for individuals, the entire top 100 is DI - I don't think that is true most years.
Only one thing seerstes D3 from D2, scholarships. Nothing else matters.
Yup. Well, and because of those scholarships D1 generally has better runners. So does D2, to a degree.
To be fair, the WIAC schools do have advantages over many D3 schools in being well funded, having great facilities, and having a deep talent pool because, even without scholarships, the affordability of the public universities can often offset the paltry scholarships offered in most running programs at D1 or D2.
Or, to put it another way, a kid can go to a WIAC school and spend less money doing so with no scholarship than some kids can go to D1 or D2 schools on scholarship.
This may change with the House Settlement as to D1. I think it still holds as to D2.
But that doesn't mean La Crosse itself dominates the WIAC—the WIAC schools are all similarly situated (although each has their own better sports programs, and UWL is definitely one of the better running ones right now).
Also, while the WIAC schools do have those advantages above, it also doesn't mean those schools dominate the D3 sports landscape.
They do quite well—look at UW-L in running, UW-W in football (and baseball and basketball), UW-O in track in the past, and others. The WIAC schools' athletic programs are generally broadly supported and well-rounded.
At the same time, look at the championships. There are plenty of other schools out there that do just fine. How many XC championships has UW-L won recently? Fewer than you'd think based on this thread's original post.
After I sit down at my other restaurant and eat extra large order of delicious Takoyaki Octopus In Fried Balls, I make simulation on lacctic website: Marquette men vs WIAC. Very interesting, results say Marquette fourth about equal to Whitewater which make sense if think about.
Only one thing seerstes D3 from D2, scholarships. Nothing else matters.
Yup. Well, and because of those scholarships D1 generally has better runners. So does D2, to a degree.
To be fair, the WIAC schools do have advantages over many D3 schools in being well funded, having great facilities, and having a deep talent pool because, even without scholarships, the affordability of the public universities can often offset the paltry scholarships offered in most running programs at D1 or D2.
Or, to put it another way, a kid can go to a WIAC school and spend less money doing so with no scholarship than some kids can go to D1 or D2 schools on scholarship.
You're right that kids can go to WIAC schools for cheaper than with some athletic scholarships. Plus there is already a very small amount of athletic scholarship money to go around in Wisconsin. However, I need to argue some of your points.
Facilities:
Have you been to most of the D3 facilities in Wisconsin? La Crosse does have the best facilities in the state, but after that, the WIAC schools don't really have better facilities. UW Eau Claire has won multiple indoor national championships with the crappiest indoor track in the WIAC. Oshkosh has been one of the best D3 track schools in the NCAA and they just got a track again after theirs was condemned a decade ago. UW Stevens Point has won multiple championships in hockey and basketball with a crappy little hockey arena and basic basketball court with bleachers. Many of the WIAC schools have outdoor track facilities that are worse than the local high schools. There are plenty of private D3 schools in Wisconsin that have just as good of facilities as WIAC schools (Ripon, St. Norberts, Carthage, and Carroll, off the top of my head).
Scholarships:
Private schools (especially prestigious ones like MIT, Chicago, and Wash U) can get around the scholarship problem by just offering bigger academic scholarships to it's athletes. WIAC schools are pretty limited with these types of scholarships.
Yup. Well, and because of those scholarships D1 generally has better runners. So does D2, to a degree.
To be fair, the WIAC schools do have advantages over many D3 schools in being well funded, having great facilities, and having a deep talent pool because, even without scholarships, the affordability of the public universities can often offset the paltry scholarships offered in most running programs at D1 or D2.
Or, to put it another way, a kid can go to a WIAC school and spend less money doing so with no scholarship than some kids can go to D1 or D2 schools on scholarship.
You're right that kids can go to WIAC schools for cheaper than with some athletic scholarships. Plus there is already a very small amount of athletic scholarship money to go around in Wisconsin. However, I need to argue some of your points.
Facilities:
Have you been to most of the D3 facilities in Wisconsin? La Crosse does have the best facilities in the state, but after that, the WIAC schools don't really have better facilities. UW Eau Claire has won multiple indoor national championships with the crappiest indoor track in the WIAC. Oshkosh has been one of the best D3 track schools in the NCAA and they just got a track again after theirs was condemned a decade ago. UW Stevens Point has won multiple championships in hockey and basketball with a crappy little hockey arena and basic basketball court with bleachers. Many of the WIAC schools have outdoor track facilities that are worse than the local high schools. There are plenty of private D3 schools in Wisconsin that have just as good of facilities as WIAC schools (Ripon, St. Norberts, Carthage, and Carroll, off the top of my head).
Scholarships:
Private schools (especially prestigious ones like MIT, Chicago, and Wash U) can get around the scholarship problem by just offering bigger academic scholarships to it's athletes. WIAC schools are pretty limited with these types of scholarships.
Yea, mate, been to literally each of the Wisconsin schools you've referenced and run on their indoor and outdoor facilities.
There are definitely haves and have nots in the WIAC, and each school has different focuses. Oshkosh, I thought, had some good track facilities. UWL of course does as well. UWW has good facilities and even hosts the unofficial Wisconsin HS "indoor track championships."
Carthage and Carroll are pretty decent. I'd take UWL and UWW over Carthage's indoor facilities. Carroll's outdoor track may have a bit more seating than UWW, but not UWL. Haven't really thought on UWO's ability to fit folks.
And other sports facilities have different degrees of quality, too.
Are all WIAC facilities super posh? Nah. Some actually are, but most are solid and, I'd dare to say in regards to D3 at least, above average.
Doesn't mean there aren't D3 schools with as good or better facilities, but the WIAC as a whole has strong sports facilities on average.
Plus, after all, both UWL and UWW have better indoor facilities than UW-Madison does at the moment! Ha. Terrible that's the case, but also a bit amusing. (Pretty sure the Badgers borrowed UWW's indoor track last year, as well as I think maybe a nearby private schools; dunno which.)
Look, all I'm saying is that the WIAC is one of the more competitive sports conferences in D3 as a conference because it has a lot of advantages. But I also agree it's not the only great D3 sports conference or school.
Untrue. The elite schools base prices entirely on need. The coaches have no input. And if a school gives an extra dollar to an athlete, the NCAA would suspend the program for a year.
You're right that kids can go to WIAC schools for cheaper than with some athletic scholarships. Plus there is already a very small amount of athletic scholarship money to go around in Wisconsin. However, I need to argue some of your points.
Facilities:
Have you been to most of the D3 facilities in Wisconsin? La Crosse does have the best facilities in the state, but after that, the WIAC schools don't really have better facilities. UW Eau Claire has won multiple indoor national championships with the crappiest indoor track in the WIAC. Oshkosh has been one of the best D3 track schools in the NCAA and they just got a track again after theirs was condemned a decade ago. UW Stevens Point has won multiple championships in hockey and basketball with a crappy little hockey arena and basic basketball court with bleachers. Many of the WIAC schools have outdoor track facilities that are worse than the local high schools. There are plenty of private D3 schools in Wisconsin that have just as good of facilities as WIAC schools (Ripon, St. Norberts, Carthage, and Carroll, off the top of my head).
Scholarships:
Private schools (especially prestigious ones like MIT, Chicago, and Wash U) can get around the scholarship problem by just offering bigger academic scholarships to it's athletes. WIAC schools are pretty limited with these types of scholarships.
Yea, mate, been to literally each of the Wisconsin schools you've referenced and run on their indoor and outdoor facilities.
There are definitely haves and have nots in the WIAC, and each school has different focuses. Oshkosh, I thought, had some good track facilities. UWL of course does as well. UWW has good facilities and even hosts the unofficial Wisconsin HS "indoor track championships."
Carthage and Carroll are pretty decent. I'd take UWL and UWW over Carthage's indoor facilities. Carroll's outdoor track may have a bit more seating than UWW, but not UWL. Haven't really thought on UWO's ability to fit folks.
And other sports facilities have different degrees of quality, too.
Are all WIAC facilities super posh? Nah. Some actually are, but most are solid and, I'd dare to say in regards to D3 at least, above average.
Doesn't mean there aren't D3 schools with as good or better facilities, but the WIAC as a whole has strong sports facilities on average.
Plus, after all, both UWL and UWW have better indoor facilities than UW-Madison does at the moment! Ha. Terrible that's the case, but also a bit amusing. (Pretty sure the Badgers borrowed UWW's indoor track last year, as well as I think maybe a nearby private schools; dunno which.)
Look, all I'm saying is that the WIAC is one of the more competitive sports conferences in D3 as a conference because it has a lot of advantages. But I also agree it's not the only great D3 sports conference or school.
Curious if you have ever run at Plateville. I visited there 20 years go and they had decent facilities at the time. Thanks!
Yup. Well, and because of those scholarships D1 generally has better runners. So does D2, to a degree.
To be fair, the WIAC schools do have advantages over many D3 schools in being well funded, having great facilities, and having a deep talent pool because, even without scholarships, the affordability of the public universities can often offset the paltry scholarships offered in most running programs at D1 or D2.
Or, to put it another way, a kid can go to a WIAC school and spend less money doing so with no scholarship than some kids can go to D1 or D2 schools on scholarship.
Private schools (especially prestigious ones like MIT, Chicago, and Wash U) can get around the scholarship problem by just offering bigger academic scholarships to it's athletes. WIAC schools are pretty limited with these types of scholarships.
It would be absolutely and physically impossible to say something less true than this.
Only one thing seerstes D3 from D2, scholarships. Nothing else matters.
Yup. Well, and because of those scholarships D1 generally has better runners. So does D2, to a degree.
To be fair, the WIAC schools do have advantages over many D3 schools in being well funded, having great facilities, and having a deep talent pool because, even without scholarships, the affordability of the public universities can often offset the paltry scholarships offered in most running programs at D1 or D2.
Or, to put it another way, a kid can go to a WIAC school and spend less money doing so with no scholarship than some kids can go to D1 or D2 schools on scholarship.
This may change with the House Settlement as to D1. I think it still holds as to D2.
But that doesn't mean La Crosse itself dominates the WIAC—the WIAC schools are all similarly situated (although each has their own better sports programs, and UWL is definitely one of the better running ones right now).
Also, while the WIAC schools do have those advantages above, it also doesn't mean those schools dominate the D3 sports landscape.
They do quite well—look at UW-L in running, UW-W in football (and baseball and basketball), UW-O in track in the past, and others. The WIAC schools' athletic programs are generally broadly supported and well-rounded.
At the same time, look at the championships. There are plenty of other schools out there that do just fine. How many XC championships has UW-L won recently? Fewer than you'd think based on this thread's original post.
Nice post.
House Settlement won't change much in D1 for distance running. The switch from 12.6 scholarships to unlimited, may produce more scholarships at the top schools, and even at P4 schools, but the bottom 2/3 of D1 will remain unfunded.
The biggest effect is actually loss of D1 roster spots, which will force former D1 walkons down the food chain to lesser D1s, or D2 and D3 schools, if they still want to run in college.
The Wisconsin State schools offer a pretty good deal. Solid education, value price, and good sports.
Your stats are way off. 95% of D1 schools have some number of scholarships for track/XC. There schools like Nebraska who finished last in the Big 10 for XC who are fully funded.
I asked grok to do an analysis. There sre 2700 legit colleges in the US. UW Lacrosse falls below the average in terms of test scores. I would not call it's educstion solid when it is below the national average. That is like saying a guy running 5 minutes in the mile in college is a solitary time.
I asked grok to do an analysis. There sre 2700 legit colleges in the US. UW Lacrosse falls below the average in terms of test scores. I would not call it's educstion solid when it is below the national average. That is like saying a guy running 5 minutes in the mile in college is a solitary time.
Right, because test scores mean everything.
To be fair, UWL and the other "Universities of Wisconsin" schools that are not Madison have a varied student body. Most are designed to offer as much higher education access to Wisconsinites as possible—i.e., they admit most folks who meet their minimum admission requirements. In fact, Wisconsin has an auto-admit process (except for Madison) for high school graduates who meet the minimum standards for admission (those minimums being having the required HS courses).
So, yeah, the test scores won't be great.
But I can tell you there are some very good programs at some of these universities. Each one provides a solid college education, and each one has one or more programs that are top-notch nationally.
Finally, the other thing folks who focus on "test scores" of incoming students at universities fail to understand is that undergrad is less and less important. It's more like the HS diplomas of the 1980s now. Grad school quality is where it matters for the most part. If you're going to be selective, that's where you want to do it. Have fun and get good grades in undergrad at a school you enjoy; be selective for grad school.
I can tell you in most of the country (maybe not the Northeast, but, eh) no one cares you went to Harvard for undergrad. For law school, med school, or business school? Now that's where it matters.
You are correct that your highest level of education matters the most. That is like saying your most recent work experience is more important than your first job. The Wiac schools are a degree factory for under achieving Wisconsin kids. Mosy end up working in the state at some below average job. They are ranked below average. The average salary 10 years after graduating from Whitewater is $45K as compared to $78K f9r Marquette.