Yes there are threshold non-responders. 400/800 types who are more fast-twitch will get worse on a threshold-centric program.
Tell that to Karsten Warholm.
He's not really on a threshold centric program. His tempos or LT work are typically on his "easy days"...Aerobic maintenance really. Hes getting his FT stimulus from the 3 hard days per week.
I am right in between – never had the talent for sprints, never had natural aerobic endurance. Kind of a sucky place to be genetically, as I almost have more weaknesses than strengths. However, for me this method has been great because I can sustainably work on faster paces and longer reps without burning out. I've personally seen the most improvement from doing 20x1min, 10x3min, and 3x10min, maximizing mechanical load at those shorter reps and then adding sustained load for the longer ones.
For what it's worth, my experience with this method has been consistently positive but at times weird until I figured it out, I think. Felt like I lacked pop in the legs but aerobically developed very well and surprised myself at longer distances. Then switched the 5x6min reps for 20x1min (and now up to 25x1min) reps and got the pop back, running faster than before but still feel very strong aerobically – can sustain consistent effort but also accelerate at the end of a race now. It's been a long process trying to figure out the best combination for my middling muscle fiber composition, but I am quickly learning that for me it's balancing aerobic development (internal load) through sub-threshold/threshold "state" (not pace, there is no such thing as threshold pace) with mechanical load (external load). Hope this helps some folks. Try out different balances of rep speed + rest configurations but still follow the basic formula of staying in a sub-threshold state.
I like the sound of the 1 min rep session -- will definitely give that a try and drop the 2k reps. Thanks for sharing.
Not sure I agree with this at all. Another fast sprint guy here, I was pretty good in college over a quarter.
Like others people keep conveniently overlooking, I am also a ft guy who has used the method from the thread successfully. Sure, adaptation is needed. But if anything, I found doing more of the longer reps useful , than short ones. Work on your weakness. Over time the gap has closed and it's working well for me.
My muscle fiber are the opposite of sirpoc. Good balanced training like this will work for everyone probably, given time. We run the risk of overcomplicating it.
Ok, this thread kind of blew up more than expected but I'd love to hear about your implementation and modification of the system that worked well! I'm particularly curious how you handled some of the longer paces because I found one issue I had was my "calculated paces" were usually off what the effort should feel like. When setting out to train like this I assumed I could just feel it out but it wasn't as easy to implement. I had also tried using the HR on my watch but it quickly became clear that it wasn't reliable, so I was going on just pace and feel.
In the original LT program Marius Bakken mentioned some variations for faster (but still LT) work.
20x 1min (rest 20-30sec) about 5K pace (but start slower 8-10K pace and work down to 5K pace as the workout goes) + 3-4x 30sec (rest 15sec) a bit faster (eg 3K pace)
10-25 x 45sec (rest 10-15sec) about 5K-3K pace (start slower and work down) + 2min rest + 5x 45sec (rest 10-15sec) at the pace you worked down (3K ish)
4-5 x (60-45-30-15sec) (rest 15sec all the way) after the last run in set (15sec) step up the pace and repeat. He does not mention exact paces for these,but starting @10K pace and stepping up every set -> 10-8-5-3K pace is reasonable starting point.
In the original LT program Marius Bakken mentioned some variations for faster (but still LT) work.
20x 1min (rest 20-30sec) about 5K pace (but start slower 8-10K pace and work down to 5K pace as the workout goes) + 3-4x 30sec (rest 15sec) a bit faster (eg 3K pace)
10-25 x 45sec (rest 10-15sec) about 5K-3K pace (start slower and work down) + 2min rest + 5x 45sec (rest 10-15sec) at the pace you worked down (3K ish)
4-5 x (60-45-30-15sec) (rest 15sec all the way) after the last run in set (15sec) step up the pace and repeat. He does not mention exact paces for these,but starting @10K pace and stepping up every set -> 10-8-5-3K pace is reasonable starting point.
Once you are at 5k pace and faster, unless you are lactate testing, there is every danger of going above LT2, or at least riding the line very close to LT2.
But it could be a key LT workout for FT types. Weekly once either 20-25x 1min (R30sec) or 25+5x 30-45s (R10-15s) + rotating 3min,6min,10min workouts for the other two days.
But agree with you about control...it should be controlled more than 6/10min reps. If you cannot repeat the cycle every week,then slow it down a bit.
But it could be a key LT workout for FT types. Weekly once either 20-25x 1min (R30sec) or 25+5x 30-45s (R10-15s) + rotating 3min,6min,10min workouts for the other two days.
But agree with you about control...it should be controlled more than 6/10min reps. If you cannot repeat the cycle every week,then slow it down a bit.
Ok, I'm actually very curious about the implementation of the shorter reps. On one of the earlier pages of this thread, the Igloi style "aerobic intervals" were mentioned and Magness talks about how doing sets of stuff like 10x 100 with turnaround rest (like 15 secs) can be effective. I've never done anything that short but recently I did try to do a traditional, continuous tempo run and I reminded myself why I don't. My goal was 20-30 minutes and I only made it a little past the 10 minute mark before I could just tell it wasn't getting comfortable, despite a pretty modest pace. Instead of scrapping the whole session, I took a bit to recover and then finished up with some alternating 30s on, 30s off and I was amazed how much better that felt. Maybe that's a mental part but I know when doing the usual 3/6/10 minute breakdowns, they could feel long for me, even at the shorter end when looking at the session with 10 sets.
I also wanted to say that looking back over my training, I'm wondering how much relative volume people are getting out of their T sessions, namely with warmup and cooldown? One thing that stood out looking over it was that my weeks were looking like a like three big days where I'd get about 20% of my mileage (2 T sessions and long run) and then the other days were half that. At least a few weeks my T sessions were longer than my long run because I would sometimes do 20-30 minutes warmup/cooldown. Again, I'm curious how this compares to others because it's something I don't remember having a concrete plan for when setting out to train this way but figuring that since I usually trained for about 20 mins that that would stay the same and I could do more if needed.
But it could be a key LT workout for FT types. Weekly once either 20-25x 1min (R30sec) or 25+5x 30-45s (R10-15s) + rotating 3min,6min,10min workouts for the other two days.
But agree with you about control...it should be controlled more than 6/10min reps. If you cannot repeat the cycle every week,then slow it down a bit.
Ok, I'm actually very curious about the implementation of the shorter reps. On one of the earlier pages of this thread, the Igloi style "aerobic intervals" were mentioned and Magness talks about how doing sets of stuff like 10x 100 with turnaround rest (like 15 secs) can be effective. I've never done anything that short but recently I did try to do a traditional, continuous tempo run and I reminded myself why I don't. My goal was 20-30 minutes and I only made it a little past the 10 minute mark before I could just tell it wasn't getting comfortable, despite a pretty modest pace. Instead of scrapping the whole session, I took a bit to recover and then finished up with some alternating 30s on, 30s off and I was amazed how much better that felt. Maybe that's a mental part but I know when doing the usual 3/6/10 minute breakdowns, they could feel long for me, even at the shorter end when looking at the session with 10 sets.
I also wanted to say that looking back over my training, I'm wondering how much relative volume people are getting out of their T sessions, namely with warmup and cooldown? One thing that stood out looking over it was that my weeks were looking like a like three big days where I'd get about 20% of my mileage (2 T sessions and long run) and then the other days were half that. At least a few weeks my T sessions were longer than my long run because I would sometimes do 20-30 minutes warmup/cooldown. Again, I'm curious how this compares to others because it's something I don't remember having a concrete plan for when setting out to train this way but figuring that since I usually trained for about 20 mins that that would stay the same and I could do more if needed.
Back in the early days of interval training Woldemar Gerschler had his runners go 100 x 200m and 200 x 100m in one workout. Early days of threshold training......... 😁
You should adopt your body to elevated mechanical stress with this type of LT training.
Even Bakken mentioned not to do every week. So the staple remains 3/6/10min reps sub-LT (you can arrive to LT at the end of the workout!). Weekly once do 1min or 30-45sec reps,alternate every week.When your body adjusts you can do 1min AND 30-45sec every week + one longer rep third day (6 or 10min). Even a FT guy should not cut out the 6/10min reps altogether. Do controll those short reps,start at very moderate 10K pace,then IF you feel good drop to 5K pace but do not rush,do not force. If you feel that flying sensation,legs going byself,relaxed fast then drop to 3K pace (only in 30-45sec workout). Otherwise stay at 8K-5K moderate pace (there are those days when even that is more than enough). That is what I mean by "controll" it. Ohh,and for FT types 5-10x 80-100m stride (Igloi style shake-ups..two gently + 1 decent but NO tensing up..rest only a few steps as you turn...preferably on soft surface eg. grass) is a MUST before every workout, and AFTER every easy or long run. Otherwise your strenght (FT) will vanish and you will be left in no-man's land,regressing with your race times.
Bakken allowed the last few short reps (30-45s) to be picked up over LT2 when you feel good,also the last 1min rep (or the last 30sec of 1min rep) BUT not every week.
Wed - WU + 5-10x strides + 5x6min or 3x10-12min (R60sec or 90sec) + few strides
Th - 55-60min easy + 10x strides
Fri - WU + 10x strides + 20-25x 1min (R30sec) or 15-25x 45sec (R15sec) + 2min rest + 5x45sec (R15sec) as he mentioned reaching 5-3K pace only in last 5reps and after 2min rest 5 more at that speed. This is not 800/1500m WORK! + WD Sat - 60min easy (no strides here,allow the body to regenerate)
Sun - 70-90min easy long run + 10x 80-100m strides
Oh Alfie, baby, you don’t think the professionals ever do anything above LT2? You think the father of the modern threshold movement in running, Mo Bakk himself, who suggested these workouts, doesn’t know as well as Alfie?
I'll probably get hanged by the strict followers from the main thread for suggesting something by Hadd & by someone other than Sirpoc, but I used to do Hadd training & had really good results in building my weaker aerobic system, since I'm more of a fast twitch type. From what I recall Hadd stressed shorter recovery reps for us FT types, so maybe consider keeping the recoveries at 60 sec & forcing yourself to slowly jog in between if you aren't already. Hadd does a good job of explaining why below.
Second thing is for OP, I'd really try to get a 3rd subthreshold session in each week. That's where the magic with this plan is. It doesn't have to be super fast. Hadd, stressed a lot of work around marathon pace +24 sec, to marathon pace -12 sec for those with underdeveloped aerobic systems, or FT types, so you could even start with that until you build your aerobic system a touch & then replace the session with one of the usual subt reps at 15k, 1/2 marathon, or 30k pace.
One thing I would like us to do with your example data from Lopes and Mamede is derive some general, and practical, training advice for FT vs ST. After all, we are encouraging people to learn what type of athlete they are ... it makes sense that we then show them alternate (but just as successful) ways of training to suit their “type”.
For example; Mamede did not like to do hard tempo runs like Lopes, but he was able to run lots of 400m intervals and have exactly the same effect on his LTP that Lopes had on HIS LTP / MaxLaSS when he did tempo runs. Mamede did this because he kept the recovery very short (something we do here too). AND (very important) he made the recovery active (100m jog in ~40 secs). This session would not have worked so well in raising his LTP if he had had a passive recovery (standstill for 40 secs), doing so would have given his anaerobic ability time to recover and so the next rep (and all subsequent reps) would have been run with too high anaerobic content and not stressed his aerobic capacity/lactate clearance as he wanted (and which he needed to raise his LTP). So what Mamede was doing was exposing his body to some little lactate with 400m at ~10k pace and then letting his body learn how to clear it in the 40 secs jog of 100m. So; exposure / clearance, exposure / clearance ... and very soon Mamede’s blood lactate at 10k pace would get lower (as his clearance ability improved) and he would feel more comfortable at that pace.
I’ll share my experience just to give a slightly different perspective. I started doing NSA/NSM or whatever you want to call it about 6 months ago. I’m up to around 7.5-8 hours and 55-60 mpw now.
At the risk of sounding like a d bag, I’ll give some background. I’m 42, 6’1 and 196 lbs last time I weighed myself. I got a body fat scan not long ago and it said I was 9% bf. Scans can vary so not sure if this is 100% accurate. For what it’s worth, Chat GPT said I appear to be 8-10% when I uploaded a pic on there. I used to lift hard but haven’t touched a weight in a long time. I just run everyday now. The internet tells me that I’m most likely a fast twitch responder based on my body type. I played football my whole life and was always fast. I always had a linebacker/fullback type build and played those positions until I got really fat later in my career haha.
One thing I can relate with from previous posts on here from FT guys is that the 3 sub T workouts seem to be a little more difficult for me than what I see others experiencing. I have the paces and HR dialed in and am definitely not overcooking it. I would say RPE is usually a 7. Today was an 8 because of the heat. Or maybe I’m just a sensitive little biatch and not as mentally tough as other people 😂
On the other hand, I’ve benefited a lot from all the sub threshold work. The best part has been not feeling crushed by the training. I didn’t see much progress in the first 2-3 months. Something intuitively felt right about it though and I felt better than I have physically in my 5 years of running. Part of the reason this is the case could be because of being over 40, who knows. I stuck with it and have had some big breakthroughs the past couple months. I can see the direct correlation with CTL and improving race times now. I have no idea if this threshold type stuff is the best approach for anyone else. I just know it seems to be working for me.
I'll probably get hanged by the strict followers from the main thread for suggesting something by Hadd & by someone other than Sirpoc, but I used to do Hadd training & had really good results in building my weaker aerobic system, since I'm more of a fast twitch type. From what I recall Hadd stressed shorter recovery reps for us FT types, so maybe consider keeping the recoveries at 60 sec & forcing yourself to slowly jog in between if you aren't already. Hadd does a good job of explaining why below.
Second thing is for OP, I'd really try to get a 3rd subthreshold session in each week. That's where the magic with this plan is. It doesn't have to be super fast. Hadd, stressed a lot of work around marathon pace +24 sec, to marathon pace -12 sec for those with underdeveloped aerobic systems, or FT types, so you could even start with that until you build your aerobic system a touch & then replace the session with one of the usual subt reps at 15k, 1/2 marathon, or 30k pace.
One thing I would like us to do with your example data from Lopes and Mamede is derive some general, and practical, training advice for FT vs ST. After all, we are encouraging people to learn what type of athlete they are ... it makes sense that we then show them alternate (but just as successful) ways of training to suit their “type”.
For example; Mamede did not like to do hard tempo runs like Lopes, but he was able to run lots of 400m intervals and have exactly the same effect on his LTP that Lopes had on HIS LTP / MaxLaSS when he did tempo runs. Mamede did this because he kept the recovery very short (something we do here too). AND (very important) he made the recovery active (100m jog in ~40 secs). This session would not have worked so well in raising his LTP if he had had a passive recovery (standstill for 40 secs), doing so would have given his anaerobic ability time to recover and so the next rep (and all subsequent reps) would have been run with too high anaerobic content and not stressed his aerobic capacity/lactate clearance as he wanted (and which he needed to raise his LTP). So what Mamede was doing was exposing his body to some little lactate with 400m at ~10k pace and then letting his body learn how to clear it in the 40 secs jog of 100m. So; exposure / clearance, exposure / clearance ... and very soon Mamede’s blood lactate at 10k pace would get lower (as his clearance ability improved) and he would feel more comfortable at that pace.
The Hadd recommendation is interesting.
For me, active recovery would make the sessions much harder, I would probably have to drop below the recommended paces. I will give it a try.
For me, active recovery would make the sessions much harder, I would probably have to drop below the recommended paces. I will give it a try.
The active recovery & shorter recovery of 60 sec may be something you have to gradually work towards. I'd slow the paces down. The Lactrace calculator gives a range so try not to worry about the fast end of the range. Remember sirpoc said "threshold is a STATE not a pace." On the podcast he was interviewed on he said on his watch he only has 2 measurements. Time and heart rate. Nothing about what pace he's going or average pace etc that I'm guilty of obsessing over at times.
I think for us fast twitch runners it can be discouraging focusing on aerobic training because we have to run slower than our aerobic, slow twitch counterparts. Takes a lot of trust & patience too. We're training our weakest area though, so the results will come eventually.
Steve Magness was mentioned above by someone else. He does a good job of explaining the role of shorter recoveries at the 16:30 mark below. Basically repeats what Hadd said & that they force the aerobic system to do the work & make itself stronger. The whole episode is interesting. Makes me want to try the 20 x 400 repeats at 10k pace with 45 sec rest sirpoc mentioned he used to do.