LV, Webb, and Granville’s records have survived the onslaught of fast HS runners. If the shoes make a difference, it cant be much more than a second per mile. There’s no way it could turn what would have been a 9:20 runner into a 9:00 guy.
I don’t know what to tell you. It seems everyone is looking for an answer and I’m just pointing out the absolute obvious.
Since you pointed out the 3200, I’ll use US times in the 3000m as an example. From 2015-2019, if you ran sub 8 you were guaranteed a place in the top 60-70. In 2022? Barely breaking 8 in a 3000 would have put you at 132nd on the US list. In 2023, 119th. And 2024, 129th.
From 2010-15, there was a gradual improvement in times. For example, if you ran sub 8 during those years, you were likely to be top 50 on the US list. But from 2015-19 there was no improvement. In 2019, last sub 8 US runner was 69th. In 2022 they were 132nd.
From 2019-22 absolutely nothing else changed other than shoes.
You think shoes drop them like 30 seconds over 2 miles?
You think shoes drop them like 30 seconds over 2 miles?
No. Not sure where you’re getting 30 seconds. I would say for a 8ish minute 3000m runner they are worth 8-10 seconds. So, if you have a bunch of runners in the 8:00-8:10 range w/o the spikes, most are now sub 8 runners. Consistently from 2015 there were between 60 and 70 sub 8 runners. 2022-24 is no different. But now, you have tech that allows you an 8 second advantage in a 3000m. So all those guys normally running 8:05 (or whatever) are now sub 8.
For a 7:30 runner, I think they are worth ~4 or 5 seconds. For a sub 7:25 runner - probably 3. Why? I don’t know. There are not a lot of runners running sub 7:25 times so it’s hard to tell. That’s just what the data shows when averaging top 100 times.
Go and pull top 100 US times from world athletics site from 2010-2020 average them out and then compare that average with years 2021-24.
You think shoes drop them like 30 seconds over 2 miles?
No. Not sure where you’re getting 30 seconds. I would say for a 8ish minute 3000m runner they are worth 8-10 seconds. So, if you have a bunch of runners in the 8:00-8:10 range w/o the spikes, most are now sub 8 runners. Consistently from 2015 there were between 60 and 70 sub 8 runners. 2022-24 is no different. But now, you have tech that allows you an 8 second advantage in a 3000m. So all those guys normally running 8:05 (or whatever) are now sub 8.
For a 7:30 runner, I think they are worth ~4 or 5 seconds. For a sub 7:25 runner - probably 3. Why? I don’t know. There are not a lot of runners running sub 7:25 times so it’s hard to tell. That’s just what the data shows when averaging top 100 times.
Go and pull top 100 US times from world athletics site from 2010-2020 average them out and then compare that average with years 2021-24.
Ok you’re saying that the only way anyone is getting faster is because of shoes. How did anyone get faster before 2020 then? Everyone just ran the same?
You have zero evidence that Hedengren or any of the other 2024-25 exceptional HIGH SCHOOL athletes discussed here or LRC are doping “and everyone on here knows it.” It’s nothing more than bias, ignorant, speculation. 🤦♂️
It seems like the posts pointing mainly to the shoes get downvoted. I don't know much about distance running, so I don't have a valid opinion on what could be driving improvement there. But I will tell you that sprint times have come down substantially in the NCAA once the new sprint spikes hit.
Just out of curiosity, I pulled the 100th best time across the sprints (100m, 200m, 400m) and in both D1 and D3. Those times remained largely consistent for years through 2019. 2020 and 2021 were weird with COVID and reduced racing (they actually got slower). But then there was a sudden drop in 2022, and times have been about 1-1.5% faster. And this improvement aligns nearly perfectly with the papers that have tried to quantify the improvement in Maximum Sprinting Speed.
So while I don't know much about distance running, I can tell you that the shoes sure seem to have created a change in the sprints. And lactate/threshold/altitude training have nothing to do with that.
15 years ago We had a distance coach that thought 6 miles was a LONG RUN. We did 300 repeats hard almost weekly, had workouts where he would literally pull reps out of a hat, and he insisted we should only run 2 miles the day before every meet. It's honestly unbelievable what we still accomplished training like we did from February through May.
My coach is still like this lol. Replace the 300s with 400s and 200s(even during XC) and 1 mile the day before meets and it is exactly our training. We have done 2 workouts plus a meet in the same week.
15 years ago We had a distance coach that thought 6 miles was a LONG RUN. We did 300 repeats hard almost weekly, had workouts where he would literally pull reps out of a hat, and he insisted we should only run 2 miles the day before every meet. It's honestly unbelievable what we still accomplished training like we did from February through May.
My coach is still like this lol. Replace the 300s with 400s and 200s(even during XC) and 1 mile the day before meets and it is exactly our training. We have done 2 workouts plus a meet in the same week.
You have zero evidence that Hedengren or any of the other 2024-25 exceptional HIGH SCHOOL athletes discussed here or LRC are doping “and everyone on here knows it.” It’s nothing more than bias, ignorant, speculation. 🤦♂️
Yeah and what would be Hedengren’s motivation be to dope? She is way, way faster than what she needs to receive a scholarship.
You have zero evidence that Hedengren or any of the other 2024-25 exceptional HIGH SCHOOL athletes discussed here or LRC are doping “and everyone on here knows it.” It’s nothing more than bias, ignorant, speculation. 🤦♂️
Yeah and what would be Hedengren’s motivation be to dope? She is way, way faster than what she needs to receive a scholarship.
What would Asinga’s motivation to dope be? He was way, way faster as well
You have zero evidence that Hedengren or any of the other 2024-25 exceptional HIGH SCHOOL athletes discussed here or LRC are doping “and everyone on here knows it.” It’s nothing more than bias, ignorant, speculation. 🤦♂️
Yeah and what would be Hedengren’s motivation be to dope? She is way, way faster than what she needs to receive a scholarship.
Hedengren’s father is heavily involved in her training (former D1 runner). He is also a professor at BYU. He would be immediately fired from BYU if he was implicated in a doping scheme. Zero chance Jane Hedengren is doping. Perfectly designed very hard training, genetics, and living at 4600ft her whole life is the reason for her dominance.
What is that conclusive evidence supposed to be? Especially at this level testing is nonexistent and the testing is not good enough anyway even if they did it. It takes real hubris or incompetence to get caught. You already know that. What we have is a major statistical outlier that is overwhelmingly suspicious to the point of being laughable. And she is not the only member in that training group where this applies.
After the HU debacle and the truly insane details of what was going on (even before the felony conviction) people on here refused to question anything and still don't. Which is nuts. All the sudden the protegy of Nick Johnson was setting historical times and beating Simpsons's record, and people here were like, "seems legit". Heck, a sizeable number of posters here still think Shelby is clean even after she was busted. People on this board root for the dopers, and the more brazen the better.
I am very comfortable with my opinion, and part of the reason is how easy it is to dope and get away with it.
Btw how does the BYU natural born runner gene work? Morgan is 27, never ran faster than 15:09 in college, yet just this year developed the ability to run in the 14:40s. Hallaway is nearly 24, never ran faster than 15:20, yet just in the last four months, at 23, suddenly developed the ability to run 14:57 and 14:52. So does this living at attitude thing kick in at different times? It all seems very Kenyan.
So why did Hendregen's "perfect genetics" also suddenly kick in in the last four months, after she turned 18? And the fact she has a stage dad deeply tied to the BYU program is not reassuring.
Btw how does the BYU natural born runner gene work? Morgan is 27, never ran faster than 15:09 in college, yet just this year developed the ability to run in the 14:40s. Hallaway is nearly 24, never ran faster than 15:20, yet just in the last four months, at 23, suddenly developed the ability to run 14:57 and 14:52. So does this living at attitude thing kick in at different times? It all seems very Kenyan.
So why did Hendregen's "perfect genetics" also suddenly kick in in the last four months, after she turned 18? And the fact she has a stage dad deeply tied to the BYU program is not reassuring.
“how does the BYU natural born runner gene work?”
Ahhh . . . That’s an easy one. For BYU runners “the hand of God” is upon them! 😲. Same as Elijah who easily has the fastest Marathon distance run in history. 👇
“And the hand of the Lord was on Elijah; and he girded up his loins, and ran before Ahab to the entrance of Jezreel.”
—- 1 Kings 18:46
Come on now! Ya gotta have more faith! 🙏 Its BYU! 😉😂
#GoCougs
This post was edited 4 minutes after it was posted.
The poster before you gave an informed answer. You, as always, stuck to your ignorance.
The ignorance is those like you who believe doping isn't present in the sport despite WADA saying it is in schools. High schoolers have trained rigorously since Ryun's era. They haven't only just discovered hard work.
IF theyre already living and training like pro's and elites when theyre in their teens,they wont have long careers.Especially if some of them havent stopped growing. Most of them will pay the price for being so good,so young.
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