Of course a slow kid isn't going to win but many of the best guys fell.or got stuck in the mud. Had the course been dry, the winner wouldn't have been top 10.
Cope. Everyone has the same conditions. It is what makes the sport great. Either figure it out or suffer. The kid who won deserved it on the day. Them's the brakes!
For all the downvotes - why is the NXN course (with weather conditions) considerably more difficult than the ncaa courses. At the NCAA championships most of the top 10 rated athletes finish top ten. You can’t say the same thing for this course. Back to back male winners who were huge upsets. I’d prefer a more fair course like any course that has been used for ncaa championships the past few decades.
While this race was fun to watch for us, it might be hard for the athletes to help them quantify and measure fitness and improvement.
This is a championship race. It's about place. It's not a time trial/fitness check.
The question is one of discernment, because obviously there are some courses that would not be ideal (even acceptable) for a national championship: 1) the race is all uphill, 2) the course is covered in 8 inches of water, 3) the race is on ice, etc. All of those options would be hard running and test physical and mental capabilities, but are they the best option for a national championship?
So, at what point do we cross that line? Folks will have different opinions. For me, it's not so much the difficulty of the course within reason (hills, water, hay bales, etc.) but the slippery footing that's probably the most problematic.
Yes. That is the point of this thread. The winner deserved it on the day. That is why the course should be changed.
The course location will never change. Part of the whole NXN experience is being at the Nike Campus, running on their track in the woods, and all the bells and whistles that come along with being at Nike HQ specifically. You can't/won't get that same experience anywhere else. Cope.
Just glad Wakemed gets some love. Likely easier than the NXN course but has a fun finish uphill that makes for some good sprints. ACCs and Southeast Regionals have been run there fairly frequently and make for good, fast racing (even with hills involved.)
Want real XC - go to Umstead State Park 20 minutes down the road and put them on the trails. XC shouldn't be glorified track, times can be achieved early in the season but strength is much more important. I understand the comment on weather, but at the end of the day, everyone has an advantage over someone else in some way. A hard course is an equalizer, as much as an equalizer can be.
The event that Nike puts on is amazing, but these conditions in Oregon are a joke. At a minimum, they should schedule the race on Friday and keep their eyes on the forecast and have the ability to move the race back 1 day if there's a better window in the forecast on Saturday.
Just glad Wakemed gets some love. Likely easier than the NXN course but has a fun finish uphill that makes for some good sprints. ACCs and Southeast Regionals have been run there fairly frequently and make for good, fast racing (even with hills involved.)
Want real XC - go to Umstead State Park 20 minutes down the road and put them on the trails. XC shouldn't be glorified track, times can be achieved early in the season but strength is much more important. I understand the comment on weather, but at the end of the day, everyone has an advantage over someone else in some way. A hard course is an equalizer, as much as an equalizer can be.
This race is supposed to give runners an opportunity to see where their work and fitness has placed them at the national level. The whole point of this thread is that a hard course shouldn’t be an equalizer in the sense that it detracts from the work and fitnesses runners have, which is objectively happening in this case.
Just glad Wakemed gets some love. Likely easier than the NXN course but has a fun finish uphill that makes for some good sprints. ACCs and Southeast Regionals have been run there fairly frequently and make for good, fast racing (even with hills involved.)
Want real XC - go to Umstead State Park 20 minutes down the road and put them on the trails. XC shouldn't be glorified track, times can be achieved early in the season but strength is much more important. I understand the comment on weather, but at the end of the day, everyone has an advantage over someone else in some way. A hard course is an equalizer, as much as an equalizer can be.
This race is supposed to give runners an opportunity to see where their work and fitness has placed them at the national level. The whole point of this thread is that a hard course shouldn’t be an equalizer in the sense that it detracts from the work and fitnesses runners have, which is objectively happening in this case.
have you ever been to NXN with teams and/or individuals? i understand the logic of what you're saying, but i believe the reality is that for the kids competing you couldn't be more wrong. it's actually the hardcore fans who want to see how they stack up on the national level.
whether they race better, worse or as-expected at Glendoveer, the vast majority of these kids still end up having an amazing overall experience.
one year our socal team was projected to be top-5. ended up way way outside of that. light rain upper 30s morning of the race. wearing spikes for the first time of the season. quite the departure from mid 70s and running in flats.
and yet, i'm not sure i've ever heard them laugh so much that entire trip. they were sad for like 30 minutes after the race then just wanted to see what the girls were gonna be wearing that night at the awards show and dance after.
if it's about the kids, it should stay in Portland as-is considering they almost universally love the entire experience no matter how their race went relative to expectations
No. They kids hate it eveytime the course is like this which is 50% of the time. Manny Putz fell again this year when he should have been in contnetion for the win. He also fell last year.
No. They kids hate it eveytime the course is like this which is 50% of the time. Manny Putz fell again this year when he should have been in contnetion for the win. He also fell last year.
Same with Danny Simmons, I listened to his running effect podcast and he said 2023 hurt… (but that he was looking forward to track anyway).
No. They kids hate it eveytime the course is like this which is 50% of the time. Manny Putz fell again this year when he should have been in contnetion for the win. He also fell last year.
Same with Danny Simmons, I listened to his running effect podcast and he said 2023 hurt… (but that he was looking forward to track anyway).
The guy fell two years in a row? That sounds like a preparation / coaching issue. The winner looked prepared for the conditions (wider angles for footing over distance). This isn’t the only race run in slop (Griak this year was sloppy, NY and NE regionals were sloppy, RunningLane and NXN were sloppy last year). Obviously some runners have figured it out, and it’s not all luck. When they get to NCAAs, a lot of times that course is sloppy. The NW, the MW, the NE in December often times are sloppy. A kid from Wisconsin has probably run in the mud more than a kid from New Mexico.
Same with Danny Simmons, I listened to his running effect podcast and he said 2023 hurt… (but that he was looking forward to track anyway).
The guy fell two years in a row? That sounds like a preparation / coaching issue. The winner looked prepared for the conditions (wider angles for footing over distance). This isn’t the only race run in slop (Griak this year was sloppy, NY and NE regionals were sloppy, RunningLane and NXN were sloppy last year). Obviously some runners have figured it out, and it’s not all luck. When they get to NCAAs, a lot of times that course is sloppy. The NW, the MW, the NE in December often times are sloppy. A kid from Wisconsin has probably run in the mud more than a kid from New Mexico.
I have been to NXN many times. There is absolutely no race that even comes close to being so sloppy. There is also no way you can prepare for such a race on a consistent basis. Soles had kids run in soft sand, others have soaked areas to practice - none of it fully prepares an athlete. And yes it is a large amount of luck. The course is like nothing these kids race on and most could never reproduce those conditions on a regular basis.
I was at Griak this year. It is absurd to compare the two levels of mud. NCAA has NEVER been as muddy and sloppy as this. If the NCAA had a race like this, coaches would flip and it would neve go back to that course.
Here is where the race is unfair to athletes. Hendengren would have been around 80th in the boys race. She is the best or second best HS girl in XC history, but she is nowhere near the 80th best boy. At NXR she would have been 130th in the boys race and she set the national 5k record. She is not a sub 4:20 or 9:10 runner like many of the boys she beat.
The race is equal in that everyone has to race in the same conditions, but it is not fair to any of these athletes. Nike puts on a great meet and the event is awesome. I just wish they would find a different locale that holds water better. The rain and cold is fine.
I have been to NXN many times. There is absolutely no race that even comes close to being so sloppy. There is also no way you can prepare for such a race on a consistent basis. Soles had kids run in soft sand, others have soaked areas to practice - none of it fully prepares an athlete. And yes it is a large amount of luck. The course is like nothing these kids race on and most could never reproduce those conditions on a regular basis.
I was at Griak this year. It is absurd to compare the two levels of mud. NCAA has NEVER been as muddy and sloppy as this. If the NCAA had a race like this, coaches would flip and it would neve go back to that course.
Here is where the race is unfair to athletes. Hendengren would have been around 80th in the boys race. She is the best or second best HS girl in XC history, but she is nowhere near the 80th best boy. At NXR she would have been 130th in the boys race and she set the national 5k record. She is not a sub 4:20 or 9:10 runner like many of the boys she beat.
The race is equal in that everyone has to race in the same conditions, but it is not fair to any of these athletes. Nike puts on a great meet and the event is awesome. I just wish they would find a different locale that holds water better. The rain and cold is fine.
This I can get behind. Couldn't have said it better myself.
I have been to NXN many times. There is absolutely no race that even comes close to being so sloppy. There is also no way you can prepare for such a race on a consistent basis. Soles had kids run in soft sand, others have soaked areas to practice - none of it fully prepares an athlete. And yes it is a large amount of luck. The course is like nothing these kids race on and most could never reproduce those conditions on a regular basis.
I was at Griak this year. It is absurd to compare the two levels of mud. NCAA has NEVER been as muddy and sloppy as this. If the NCAA had a race like this, coaches would flip and it would neve go back to that course.
Here is where the race is unfair to athletes. Hendengren would have been around 80th in the boys race. She is the best or second best HS girl in XC history, but she is nowhere near the 80th best boy. At NXR she would have been 130th in the boys race and she set the national 5k record. She is not a sub 4:20 or 9:10 runner like many of the boys she beat.
The race is equal in that everyone has to race in the same conditions, but it is not fair to any of these athletes. Nike puts on a great meet and the event is awesome. I just wish they would find a different locale that holds water better. The rain and cold is fine.
This I can get behind. Couldn't have said it better myself.
You realize last year's conditions were worse, right? Every returning kid said it in interviews. What you fail to realize on Saturday is the Hedengren effect on the boys: the boys race went out so conservative and soft. No one wanted to lead. No one wanted to push. Someone could have raced like Hedengren and yet no one did. That's why you are having trouble comparing times. My kid ran 15:30s last year and 15:40s this year.
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