First off, for anyone that doesn't know, tariffs are NOT a tax that you can charge to other countries. They're a tax on American companies that do business with other countries. I repeat: they are literally a tax on American companies, full stop.
Trump has explicitly said "tariffs are a tax on foreign countries", and "we're going to be taking in trillions of dollars from China by charging them tariffs". imho this is his farthest fetching lie, because he's talking about trillions of dollars, where we'd literally be taking in zero.
The closest I've heard anyone in the Media come to calling him out on this is when they say "Trump's tariffs hurt American consumers". Normally they just say "Trump's tariffs on <x country>" which they know will lead viewers to believe him.
This leaves many voters still believing that Trump is able to to charge taxes to China/Mexico/Canada. The fact that no one seems willing to just say "he's lying, that's not how tariffs work at all, we're not taking in ANY money from China", is a problem.
If you want to educate your friends a bit about this, and for American companies to not get taxed for no reason, point them to this Investopedia article explaining the basics of tariffs (see the part where it says "Tariffs are paid by domestic consumers and not the exporting country"), so that SOMEONE can start holding Trump accountable for his unchecked lies:
Mr. Trump does not consciously lie: he simply tells what he wants to be the truth. Check that out. The fact that his statements are opposed to the facts at hand is irrelevant to a man who sees himself as the center of the universe and in control. Your basic self-appointed "stable genius." It is true because it works for him.
Your bolded claim for all practical purposes is meaningless. It’s basic economics that increasing price will decrease demand, all else being equal. If that didn’t happen to an extent to be significant enough, that just means the tariffs weren’t high enough to be noticeable
The reality is they did have an effect and it’s all already in the past. China lost some money and the US pocketed some of it. That is exactly what a literal US tax on China would’ve done. Absolutely no one thinks the US can literally tax China, so jumping up and down about a nonsensical belief attributed to the “gullible masses” is pointless.
It's hardly meaningless. It actually is full of meaning and the truth. And it gives you a home run on your point.
I started this convo with you to clarify your statement. And I just did it again.
I still don't know why you are posting in this thread if you aren't interested in trump's position or future intent but to each their
Ok, you can consider it full of meaning. It’s moot as far as I’m concerned. It doesn’t appear like you disagree with anything objectively refutable that I said, but are saying something philosophical.
I still don't know why you are posting in this thread if you aren't interested in trump's position or future intent but to each their own.
I don’t care or need to explain why, but urge you to learn to read and quote my precise and specific sentences like I instructed you earlier in post #70. The above is a good example of lazy reading. It’s not something I claimed.
Let's review. What is your point again? China makes less money if tariffs are placed on goods they sell? Is that it?
This is true if, and only if, the US company that is buying the goods from China doesn't buy them because of the tariff. So home run for you if that's the case!
The bottom line though is no matter if the US company buys the goods from China or doesn't, the product ultimately costs the consumer more money. So the US consumer is kinda paying the tariff, right?
So do you think tariffs are a good thing or a bad thing for the US consumer and the US economy?
Finally, if you have no interest or position on trumps future intent why are you posting about calling trump out for lying about how tariffs work?
The argument bhah makes is that tariffs are a tax on China. Then later argues they are not literally a tax on China, but have the exact same effect as a tax on China because China is harmed, the US gov't has more tax revenue, some local industry may have revenues increased.
This obviously ignores many important details, including - definitions of words - tax laws, cash flows, financial accounting - add'l US tax revenue is not paid by China in either argument, nor anything equivalent to that - US consumers now have to pay tax revenue from increased prices, which would not be the case if China pays the tax revenue - sourcing can go to the next best bargain, i.e. another importer, which also causes increased costs to US corporations and US consumers - China and other countries respond by imposing retaliatory tariffs, which also hurt US corporations and US consumers I'm sure there are more details but hey, China is being taxed! But, like, not literally taxed! But tomato/tomahto!
You can't disagree. If you do, you are stupid and your reading comprehension is bad. LOL.
Your reading comprehension appears to have slightly improved, but only very slightly so. Continue applying yourself diligently. And feel free to jump up and down that it’s not literally a tax because the US can’t tax China; that’s a very smart and deep and meaningful point in your arsenal.
Still doesn’t sound like you are disagreeing with anything objectively refutable that I said.
I'm in the 'tariffs are stupid' camp but to be fair, it's not a 1:1 relationship between the tariff amount and a raise in prices to consumers. For the following reasons:
1) A tariff will raise the value of the US currency. That has already happened - the dollar is soaring. Which makes it cheaper for US companies to buy overseas, which cancels out some of the tariff amount. And a high dollar makes all things cheaper to US citizens. (but makes our products less competitive overseas)
2) Companies will absorb some of the tariff out their profits, to keep market share. For example, Home Depot will absorb some losses, keeping price hikes lower than the tariff amount, so its product prices don't go up hugely...in case Lowe's does the same.
3) If prices go up from tariffs and US consumers have less money after comping corporations who pay the tariffs....consumers then won't have as much money to spend elsewhere. So there will be inflation in the products hit by tariffs....but deflation in the products not hit by tariffs, from lower demand. That will balance out some of the inflationary impact of tariffs.
But overall, mercantilism, using trade as a weapon, is stupid and turns its back on the entire post-WW2 global success story of rules, cooperation and competitive advantage. We're such fools to take a hammer to that. Unintended consequences will be rife.
This post was edited 10 minutes after it was posted.
I'm in the 'tariffs are stupid' camp but to be fair, it's not a 1:1 relationship between the tariff amount and a raise in prices to consumers. For the following reasons:
1) A tariff will raise the value of the US currency. That has already happened - the dollar is soaring. Which makes it cheaper for US companies to buy overseas, which cancels out some of the tariff amount. And a high dollar makes all things cheaper to US citizens. (but makes our products less competitive overseas)
2) Companies will absorb some of the tariff out their profits, to keep market share. For example, Home Depot will absorb some losses, keeping price hikes lower than the tariff amount, so its product prices don't go up hugely...in case Lowe's does the same.
3) If costs go up from tariffs and US consumers have less money after comping corporations who pay the tariffs....consumers then won't have as much money to spend elsewhere. So there will be inflation in the products hit by tariffs....but deflation in the products not hit by tariffs, from lower demand. That will balance out some of the inflationary impact of tariffs.
But overall, mercantilism, using trade as a weapon, is stupid and turns its back on the entire post-WW2 global success story of rules, cooperation and competitive advantage. We're such fools to take a hammer to that. Unintended consequences will be rife.
Your actual three points are fine (and there are many more nuanced pros and cons to tariffs) but your opening sentence and last para sound naive. Tariffs have always been used, literally for thousands of years, as an economic instrument in international trade and will continue to be used when deemed strategically useful. That is how the “free market” at the geopolitical level is designed to work.
Trade aggressions are better than military aggressions and are inevitable and it’s naive to think otherwise. Sure, world peace and motherhood and apple pie would be nice, but that ain’t realpolitik.
I'm in the 'tariffs are stupid' camp but to be fair, it's not a 1:1 relationship between the tariff amount and a raise in prices to consumers. For the following reasons:
1) A tariff will raise the value of the US currency. That has already happened - the dollar is soaring. Which makes it cheaper for US companies to buy overseas, which cancels out some of the tariff amount. And a high dollar makes all things cheaper to US citizens. (but makes our products less competitive overseas)
2) Companies will absorb some of the tariff out their profits, to keep market share. For example, Home Depot will absorb some losses, keeping price hikes lower than the tariff amount, so its product prices don't go up hugely...in case Lowe's does the same.
3) If costs go up from tariffs and US consumers have less money after comping corporations who pay the tariffs....consumers then won't have as much money to spend elsewhere. So there will be inflation in the products hit by tariffs....but deflation in the products not hit by tariffs, from lower demand. That will balance out some of the inflationary impact of tariffs.
But overall, mercantilism, using trade as a weapon, is stupid and turns its back on the entire post-WW2 global success story of rules, cooperation and competitive advantage. We're such fools to take a hammer to that. Unintended consequences will be rife.
Your actual three points are fine (and there are many more nuanced pros and cons to tariffs) but your opening sentence and last para sound naive. Tariffs have always been used, literally for thousands of years, as an economic instrument in international trade and will continue to be used when deemed strategically useful. That is how the “free market” at the geopolitical level is designed to work.
Trade aggressions are better than military aggressions and are inevitable and it’s naive to think otherwise. Sure, world peace and motherhood and apple pie would be nice, but that ain’t realpolitik.
you and I both know what I'm talking about - the radically higher tariffs proposed by the Republican party as an ending to the post WW2 order of relatively small tariffs and ever more free trade pacts among nations.
You are being pedantic rather than well-meaning.
In the post WW2 period we had ever more free trade and no big wars among participants. That was really good. (but sure, there have always been relatively low tariffs) Now because of the Republican Party we're separating out into enemy camps, not understanding that it's not a zero sum game we all can and have prospered from. This will not end well, and will likely end in big war as we stop trusting each other.
This post was edited 9 minutes after it was posted.
You dont know how tariffs work. tariffs are taxes on certain goods or resources that come INTO the country.
For example, taxing on imported steel. If china is flooding the US with cheap steel, then US companies will use Chinese steel to build things. Tariff steel and US companies are encouraged to use steel made in the US because it would be cheaper.
This would strengthen the US steel business and make us less reliant on China, a country that is becoming further and further from an ally. Do you want the supply of steel to be dependent on a country who is on the verge of starting war with you? Just one example.
Several simple examples of why "Trump economics " tariffs hurt USA consumers.
1) When you go to Wal-Mart and pay 60% more for your case of beer you'll finally realize how stupid you are.
2) when "Trump economics" corporate 30% tax breaks are granted you will NOT receive a 30% pay increase at your job working the fry machine. Rather shareholders and CEO of McDonalds will receive huge bonuses.Trickle down never worked during Reagan years.
3) when we have no immigrants to help harvest our crops and work in meat packing industry there will be no food and inflation. Think of the peanut harvest scenario a few years ago.
4) Gas prices will go up because Texas oil companies will have a monopoly on gas prices due to no EV's, solar, wind or fusion alt energy.
5) price of car will be out of reach not just because of "local content" but also UAW line worker will demand a 60% pay increase.
My hope is our economy will go into a terrible depression. Like other past protectionalism economies.
Our global economy is a symbiotic relationship with each other. Its not my fault you have a high school education working at Wal-Mart.
First off, for anyone that doesn't know, tariffs are NOT a tax that you can charge to other countries. They're a tax on American companies that do business with other countries. I repeat: they are literally a tax on American companies, full stop.
Trump has explicitly said "tariffs are a tax on foreign countries", and "we're going to be taking in trillions of dollars from China by charging them tariffs". imho this is his farthest fetching lie, because he's talking about trillions of dollars, where we'd literally be taking in zero.
The closest I've heard anyone in the Media come to calling him out on this is when they say "Trump's tariffs hurt American consumers". Normally they just say "Trump's tariffs on <x country>" which they know will lead viewers to believe him.
This leaves many voters still believing that Trump is able to to charge taxes to China/Mexico/Canada. The fact that no one seems willing to just say "he's lying, that's not how tariffs work at all, we're not taking in ANY money from China", is a problem.
If you want to educate your friends a bit about this, and for American companies to not get taxed for no reason, point them to this Investopedia article explaining the basics of tariffs (see the part where it says "Tariffs are paid by domestic consumers and not the exporting country"), so that SOMEONE can start holding Trump accountable for his unchecked lies:
You lefties screech about the rich and whine about them "paying their fair share" yet when the scary orange man gives the rich this very opportunity you immediately abandon your so called principles and revert to attacking the scary orange man.
When Apple has a 25% profit margin because they're making their products in China using slave labor (where they literally put nets around the buildings because so many people were jumping from the buildings rather than work another moment under those conditions).
You class warfare morons should be cheering an opportunity to stick it to corrupt corporations like Apple.
You dont know how tariffs work. tariffs are taxes on certain goods or resources that come INTO the country.
For example, taxing on imported steel. If china is flooding the US with cheap steel, then US companies will use Chinese steel to build things. Tariff steel and US companies are encouraged to use steel made in the US because it would be cheaper.
This would strengthen the US steel business and make us less reliant on China, a country that is becoming further and further from an ally. Do you want the supply of steel to be dependent on a country who is on the verge of starting war with you? Just one example.
Several simple examples of why "Trump economics " tariffs hurt USA consumers.
1) When you go to Wal-Mart and pay 60% more for your case of beer you'll finally realize how stupid you are.
2) when "Trump economics" corporate 30% tax breaks are granted you will NOT receive a 30% pay increase at your job working the fry machine. Rather shareholders and CEO of McDonalds will receive huge bonuses.Trickle down never worked during Reagan years.
3) when we have no immigrants to help harvest our crops and work in meat packing industry there will be no food and inflation. Think of the peanut harvest scenario a few years ago.
4) Gas prices will go up because Texas oil companies will have a monopoly on gas prices due to no EV's, solar, wind or fusion alt energy.
5) price of car will be out of reach not just because of "local content" but also UAW line worker will demand a 60% pay increase.
My hope is our economy will go into a terrible depression. Like other past protectionalism economies.
Our global economy is a symbiotic relationship with each other. Its not my fault you have a high school education working at Wal-Mart.
1) Wal-Mart destroyed TENS OF THOUSANDS of small businesses in America. Companies like Wal-Mart are why it takes 2 incomes to survive in America now.
2) Trickle down has always worked. The poor in America aren't obese with cell phones and cable television for no reason.
3) We don't need 5+ MILLION illegals every year to pick lettuce. We certainly don't need their millions of anchor babies to do anything.
4) Oil is a global commodity. If Texas did that companies would just buy oil from other states or other countries. Competition is a beautiful thing.
5) The UAW already completely destroyed the auto industry.
Anyone hoping for a depression is a f*cking idiot. People you lie about caring about will suffer right along with the people you want to punish for disagreeing with you.
First off, for anyone that doesn't know, tariffs are NOT a tax that you can charge to other countries. They're a tax on American companies that do business with other countries. I repeat: they are literally a tax on American companies, full stop.
Trump has explicitly said "tariffs are a tax on foreign countries", and "we're going to be taking in trillions of dollars from China by charging them tariffs". imho this is his farthest fetching lie, because he's talking about trillions of dollars, where we'd literally be taking in zero.
The closest I've heard anyone in the Media come to calling him out on this is when they say "Trump's tariffs hurt American consumers". Normally they just say "Trump's tariffs on " which they know will lead viewers to believe him.
This leaves many voters still believing that Trump is able to to charge taxes to China/Mexico/Canada. The fact that no one seems willing to just say "he's lying, that's not how tariffs work at all, we're not taking in ANY money from China", is a problem.
If you want to educate your friends a bit about this, and for American companies to not get taxed for no reason, point them to this Investopedia article explaining the basics of tariffs (see the part where it says "Tariffs are paid by domestic consumers and not the exporting country"), so that SOMEONE can start holding Trump accountable for his unchecked lies:
You lefties screech about the rich and whine about them "paying their fair share" yet when the scary orange man gives the rich this very opportunity you immediately abandon your so called principles and revert to attacking the scary orange man.
When Apple has a 25% profit margin because they're making their products in China using slave labor (where they literally put nets around the buildings because so many people were jumping from the buildings rather than work another moment under those conditions).
You class warfare morons should be cheering an opportunity to stick it to corrupt corporations like Apple.
oh don't worry - trump being king will force companies to come supplicating to mar-a-trasho and personally beg for exemptions and if they contribute enough to the trump fund, or stay enough nights at the trump hotel, or buy adverts on truth social, or buy enough trump bibles, or just say nice things about trump's physical fitness and toughness, trump will give tariff exemptions to them. If theuy don't, trump will crush them.
it's just putin-style plutocracy, we're facing. Trump will personally decide who wins and loses.
Great.
This post was edited 9 minutes after it was posted.
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