Let’s be real, a bunch of WRs indoors and on the road are kind of irrelevant. Bekele broke the two most important ones. Hicham never won a 10k title or fast 5k or 10k time. Bekele has run fast 5k - Marathon. This is a no brainer.
Bekele never came close to 3:26 either or won a 1500 title
And what do you mean he never ran a fast 5k time? His very first 5000 as a pro was 12:50, good enough for 7th all-time at the time. In the final in Paris, he closed a 12:52 race in 53.
When Geb came on the scene, the world records were barely sub 27 and sub 13. Look at what they were after. Geb also ran a 3:31 indoor 1500 and done something Bekele never could. He broke the 5000/10000/Half Marathon/Marathon World records. He also has way more big marathon wins than Bekele ever did.
Bekele has the XC titles and its why he gets my GOAT status but nowhere near as clearcut as you are making out. Haile arguably had a better track career, and had a way better marathon career.
Range from 5000m-marathon > than 1500m-5000
Look at what the records looked like after Bekele came onto the scene.
As said, worth around 7:40 (WR 7:32.1 at the time).
Worth @ 7:37 per the calculators I find, about 5 secs slower than Rono'a 3k WR - which was 3 secs faster than previous record. And Ovett slowed down and waved to the crowd in the finishing straight.
Plus he broke mile and 1500m records.
And won 800m OG gold
It's just silly to argue he could not run a fast pace
If we agree with the 1.08 for Mile/1500m, it should be more like around 1.075 for 2 Miles/3000m. This would make Ovett's 2 Miles worth 7:39.08, which I think is realistic.
He has had a pacemaker for 3120 meters and he has not slowed down. The wave cost him at most 1 tenth. It was Ovett's best performance at a distance longer than the Mile. In any real fast race he faded badly.
Well the better runner is Jakob - he's run markedly faster over all their comparable distances except the 800m and even while he won't ever run 1.43.8 like Aouita, I doubt we will ever see an official 800m that really reflects his potential.
But these types of questions are why I have always made a distinction better "best" and "greatest" because while Jakob is better, is he a greater all round runner than Aouita? Not sure. Greatness to me is the nuanced "measure" and brings in things like context and relativity to the era. All of Aouitas PR's are by todays standards good but not exceptional (he sits 31st all-time in the 1500, 10th in the mile - though this is more a function of how much less the mile is run in big meets than it was in his era, 45th in the 3000 and 112th in the 5000m) - but of course at the time almost all of his bests were the yardstick for humankind as they were the WR's.
I think the big mistake we make when historically comparing athletes in all sports is simply transplanting those from the past into todays landscape but still viewing their performances and abilities from those of the past. Like people who say Jack Nicklaus would get smoked by todays crop of pros or Bill Russell was great in the 60's but put him in todays game and he wouldn't stack up. Sure there is a cut-off where this concept applies (like is Jack Lovelock really running sub 3.30 if he were around today?) but Aouita was definitely a talent that would clearly translate and elevate accordingly to the modern era.
I think the "who is greater" question is very close, but I think it's Aouita. WR's in the 1500m, 3000m, 5000m including holding the 15-5 combo for 5 years. The 800+5000m medal combo from the Olympics is such a weird one to contextualize in terms of importance but it is incredible at the same time and will never be repeated. He won 115 of 119 races across basically 8 years - even Jakob can't and won't match that dominance. It's a great question and whoever made the comparison between the two did well because they are very similar in many aspects.
I rarely disagree with you, but I do here. Aouita is the only guy in history to my knowledge who moved down to the 800m from the 1500/5000m. But you're right, nobody else will ever try.
Even his 1500/mile suffered in 88. Wise move to pull out of the 1500m in Seoul.
He only broke 1:45 in a season in which he raced a 5000m once - 1987 (1:44.7). In 83 (1:44.4) and 88 (1:43.9) he did not run a 5000m.
Ovett broke the two mile WR, easily beating Henry Rono who himself had been breaking WRs for fun that summer, just a couple of weeks after running 1:44.0 at the European Championships.
I think in the winter of 87/88, Aouita decided that all the Brits, even Cram, were washed up. Cruz was apparently past it too, and Konchellah had an ankle injury. He would never have an opportunity like this again. The memory of chickening out of the LA 1500m must have haunted him too.
As for his unbeaten run, well the Golden League was introduced in part because of Aouita's famous dodging of rivals.
Then there are all the doping red flags. Aouita today would either be a lot slower or get popped.
Yes, the Golden League was introduced in 1998 because of Aouita in the 80s.
1:44.38 for Aouita becomes 1:44.4, 1:43.86 for Aouita becomes 1:43.9, 1:44.09 for Ovett becomes 1:44.0 - no bias to see.
In all of the history of distance running, no other runners were as good in dodging of rivals as Coe and Ovett.
I rarely disagree with you, but I do here. Aouita is the only guy in history to my knowledge who moved down to the 800m from the 1500/5000m. But you're right, nobody else will ever try.
Even his 1500/mile suffered in 88. Wise move to pull out of the 1500m in Seoul.
He only broke 1:45 in a season in which he raced a 5000m once - 1987 (1:44.7). In 83 (1:44.4) and 88 (1:43.9) he did not run a 5000m.
Ovett broke the two mile WR, easily beating Henry Rono who himself had been breaking WRs for fun that summer, just a couple of weeks after running 1:44.0 at the European Championships.
I think in the winter of 87/88, Aouita decided that all the Brits, even Cram, were washed up. Cruz was apparently past it too, and Konchellah had an ankle injury. He would never have an opportunity like this again. The memory of chickening out of the LA 1500m must have haunted him too.
As for his unbeaten run, well the Golden League was introduced in part because of Aouita's famous dodging of rivals.
Then there are all the doping red flags. Aouita today would either be a lot slower or get popped.
Yes, the Golden League was introduced in 1998 because of Aouita in the 80s.
1:44.38 for Aouita becomes 1:44.4, 1:43.86 for Aouita becomes 1:43.9, 1:44.09 for Ovett becomes 1:44.0 - no bias to see.
In all of the history of distance running, no other runners were as good in dodging of rivals as Coe and Ovett.
They only dodged each other. Bayi and Walker did the same thing.
Well the better runner is Jakob - he's run markedly faster over all their comparable distances except the 800m and even while he won't ever run 1.43.8 like Aouita, I doubt we will ever see an official 800m that really reflects his potential.
But these types of questions are why I have always made a distinction better "best" and "greatest" because while Jakob is better, is he a greater all round runner than Aouita? Not sure. Greatness to me is the nuanced "measure" and brings in things like context and relativity to the era. All of Aouitas PR's are by todays standards good but not exceptional (he sits 31st all-time in the 1500, 10th in the mile - though this is more a function of how much less the mile is run in big meets than it was in his era, 45th in the 3000 and 112th in the 5000m) - but of course at the time almost all of his bests were the yardstick for humankind as they were the WR's.
I think the big mistake we make when historically comparing athletes in all sports is simply transplanting those from the past into todays landscape but still viewing their performances and abilities from those of the past. Like people who say Jack Nicklaus would get smoked by todays crop of pros or Bill Russell was great in the 60's but put him in todays game and he wouldn't stack up. Sure there is a cut-off where this concept applies (like is Jack Lovelock really running sub 3.30 if he were around today?) but Aouita was definitely a talent that would clearly translate and elevate accordingly to the modern era.
I think the "who is greater" question is very close, but I think it's Aouita. WR's in the 1500m, 3000m, 5000m including holding the 15-5 combo for 5 years. The 800+5000m medal combo from the Olympics is such a weird one to contextualize in terms of importance but it is incredible at the same time and will never be repeated. He won 115 of 119 races across basically 8 years - even Jakob can't and won't match that dominance. It's a great question and whoever made the comparison between the two did well because they are very similar in many aspects.
I rarely disagree with you, but I do here. Aouita is the only guy in history to my knowledge who moved down to the 800m from the 1500/5000m. But you're right, nobody else will ever try.
Even his 1500/mile suffered in 88. Wise move to pull out of the 1500m in Seoul.
He only broke 1:45 in a season in which he raced a 5000m once - 1987 (1:44.7). In 83 (1:44.4) and 88 (1:43.9) he did not run a 5000m.
Ovett broke the two mile WR, easily beating Henry Rono who himself had been breaking WRs for fun that summer, just a couple of weeks after running 1:44.0 at the European Championships.
I think in the winter of 87/88, Aouita decided that all the Brits, even Cram, were washed up. Cruz was apparently past it too, and Konchellah had an ankle injury. He would never have an opportunity like this again. The memory of chickening out of the LA 1500m must have haunted him too.
As for his unbeaten run, well the Golden League was introduced in part because of Aouita's famous dodging of rivals.
Then there are all the doping red flags. Aouita today would either be a lot slower or get popped.
Well conversely I don't disagree with basically any of this - the question is how it somehow weighs/factors into the bigger question.
The big one we just have to discount - doping. I mean it's hard to believe he wasn't involved in something (the era and that classic tell-tale of looking like he was absolutely in pieces with 100 to go then managing to magically overpower the fatigue in the home straight) - but then again we all are sort of okay with signing off on El G as the MD GOAT and well, was his reality much different?
Dodging rivals? Well this was introduced by our friends Mr Coe and Mr Ovett if we are truly honest. At least Aouita and Cram hooked up for that legendary sub 3.30 effort - I think this was just a function of the era, I wouldn't hold this overly against him though you have to give Jakob a big plus on this because he never ever avoids anyone, even when he's not 100% at his best.
Maybe I am overstating the move down to the 800, in '88 he did catch the event in a slight transitional period as Cruz was waning, Coe was complete dice-roll at this point of if he ran well or not at the distance and the battery of Kenyans headed up by Ereng weren't quite as strong as they were to become in the early 90s.
But I still go back to holding the 1500/5000 record simultaneously for the period he did - that's another thing nobody will do again for that long - if they can even do it at all. It's not clear cut but it's just my opinion and honestly I couldn't really argue much with someone who went the other direction on this question.
Yes, the Golden League was introduced in 1998 because of Aouita in the 80s.
1:44.38 for Aouita becomes 1:44.4, 1:43.86 for Aouita becomes 1:43.9, 1:44.09 for Ovett becomes 1:44.0 - no bias to see.
In all of the history of distance running, no other runners were as good in dodging of rivals as Coe and Ovett.
They only dodged each other. Bayi and Walker did the same thing.
Let's not forget the "Four Horsemen" of dodging each other at the detriment of the sport - Usain Bolt, Tyson Gay, Asafa Powell and Yohan Blake, who even went as far as requesting different heats (and being afforded it) on the rare occasions a combination of them showed up at the same meeting together.
Worth @ 7:37 per the calculators I find, about 5 secs slower than Rono'a 3k WR - which was 3 secs faster than previous record. And Ovett slowed down and waved to the crowd in the finishing straight.
Plus he broke mile and 1500m records.
And won 800m OG gold
It's just silly to argue he could not run a fast pace
If we agree with the 1.08 for Mile/1500m, it should be more like around 1.075 for 2 Miles/3000m. This would make Ovett's 2 Miles worth 7:39.08, which I think is realistic.
He has had a pacemaker for 3120 meters and he has not slowed down. The wave cost him at most 1 tenth. It was Ovett's best performance at a distance longer than the Mile. In any real fast race he faded badly.
For sure I was not talking about 1500m/Mile.
When he broke the 2 mile WR that was not a real fast race?
Worth @ 7:37 per the calculators I find, about 5 secs slower than Rono'a 3k WR - which was 3 secs faster than previous record. And Ovett slowed down and waved to the crowd in the finishing straight.
Plus he broke mile and 1500m records.
And won 800m OG gold
It's just silly to argue he could not run a fast pace
If we agree with the 1.08 for Mile/1500m, it should be more like around 1.075 for 2 Miles/3000m. This would make Ovett's 2 Miles worth 7:39.08, which I think is realistic.
He has had a pacemaker for 3120 meters and he has not slowed down. The wave cost him at most 1 tenth. It was Ovett's best performance at a distance longer than the Mile. In any real fast race he faded badly.
For sure I was not talking about 1500m/Mile.
Don't agree.
Too simplistic
The calculators put his 2 mile WR as equal to a 7:37 for a 3k.
Yes, the Golden League was introduced in 1998 because of Aouita in the 80s.
1:44.38 for Aouita becomes 1:44.4, 1:43.86 for Aouita becomes 1:43.9, 1:44.09 for Ovett becomes 1:44.0 - no bias to see.
In all of the history of distance running, no other runners were as good in dodging of rivals as Coe and Ovett.
They only dodged each other. Bayi and Walker did the same thing.
Yes, and they (Coe and Ovett) never dodged each other at a major championships. Obviously one of the major reasons they didn't race was because there were no World Championships until 1983, when Coe was ill, and only again four years later in 87, when Coe was again injured and Ovett was in his 30's and had moved up to the 5000m (not to avoid Coe).
They had four years when they were both at their peak (78-81) when they could have raced each other, and they did race 3 times, all at the two major Championships held in those four years, the European 78, and Moscow Olympic 80.
Ovett did not avoid Coe in the 800m in 78. They both could have stuck to their best events going in to Moscow, and would each have expected to easily win a gold each.
In 82, they would have raced each other at least 8 or 9 times not including heats if Ovett hadn't impaled his leg and Coe hadn't developed glandular fever. They had agreed to a series of races at different distances, and they both would have faced each other in the 800 and 1500 at the Commonwealth Games AND the European Championships.
Ovett didn't duck Cram when they raced at Crystal Palce after Helsinki and the week after Ovett had broken the WR again. Coe didn't duck Cram in 85 when he was below his best and Cram was in the form of his life.
Imagine if Jakob had skipped the 1500m in Paris and just ran the 5000m, and then boasted that he would have won easily if he had taken part, and that Hocker's victory was hollow? That's what Aouita did in LA, and again in Rome 1987.
Coe and Ovett had duels that will be remembered in another 100 years. Aouita NEVER faced any of the Brits at their peak in a major championships other than in 1983 when he was new. Aouita NEVER ran against Coe once. Thats' way more ridiculous than Coe and Ovett rarely racing.
As far as Aouita and the motivation behind the Golden League is concerned, I posted a link here several years ago with a reference to that.
If we agree with the 1.08 for Mile/1500m, it should be more like around 1.075 for 2 Miles/3000m. This would make Ovett's 2 Miles worth 7:39.08, which I think is realistic.
He has had a pacemaker for 3120 meters and he has not slowed down. The wave cost him at most 1 tenth. It was Ovett's best performance at a distance longer than the Mile. In any real fast race he faded badly.
For sure I was not talking about 1500m/Mile.
When he broke the 2 mile WR that was not a real fast race?
I know that Jakob has not finished his career and he very well may run a 5k or 1500 record one day...but as of now, who is the better runner?
I say Jakob due to 1500m + 5000m Olympic Gold but he also hasn't set the 1500m or 5000m record. Aouita set a WR in every event from 1500m to 5000m other than the mile. SO who would you argue is better and why?
Also, Passant, don't ruin this thread by explaining how Aouita was a product of himself and poverty, Idc.
Id say jakob,because he's won more titles. I suppose if said aouita was running today,with fancy shoes,he would be better. He was near the top of the world from 800 to 10'000 meters
If Aouita was legit, I have him with the greatest range, but Aouita was not legit. Aouita was probably good for silver rather than bronze, don't think he was quite A plus for the final.
Range includes 400 800, but nobody with a great 400 does distance, except one of one, Coe, who never bothered with it, except for toasting Eamonn Coghlan, I think in an 8km road race and set the course record of Brendan Foster. Coe was also a cross country and distance runner in his youth, though Dad was developing speed / indurance in an unprecedented way.
Ovett had the 47 400m as a youth, and some 5000m credentials, where he ditched top end speed for hybrid mile/cross aerobic ability, and never optimized what so ever at 400, 800 nor 5000m, until he was on the B section of his running career, to be sure.
Ovett was good for 141 800, in the same league as Coe, but for the all in 1500 training focus, which strangely, in this strange world led to 800 gold and 1500 silver that's all she wrote. Ovett with the 2 mile world record, on a lark is a feather in his cap for range, actually demonstrated against in shape GOAT Rono.
Though the 5k and 10k is related, you don't see 46 second 400 guys playing with 10k,
You had Fernando Mamede running 400m relay in the olympics and 10k world record. That is kind of a GOAT resume when you adjust the clocking for the times, and training technique especially.
Mamede deserves some kind of special statue for figuring out how to go from 400m to the 10k. the guy got all kinds of flack for failing in the big one, but upon review, he did very well in straight finals races, and had no juice after heats, which makes all the sense in the world if you are fast twitch heavy.
So I give it to Mamede, and hypothetically to Coe and Ovett, where their credentials in off distances are not vast buy very impressive indeed.
See Coe archive articles below
Brendan Foster, The 40th Anniversary of Seb Coe's 41 Days In 1979 - Part 2 of 3 - The Mile World Record - runblogrun Coe chronicles - the junior years - AW
Yes, and they (Coe and Ovett) never dodged each other at a major championships. Obviously one of the major reasons they didn't race was because there were no World Championships until 1983, when Coe was ill, and only again four years later in 87, when Coe was again injured and Ovett was in his 30's and had moved up to the 5000m (not to avoid Coe).
They had four years when they were both at their peak (78-81) when they could have raced each other, and they did race 3 times, all at the two major Championships held in those four years, the European 78, and Moscow Olympic 80.
Ovett did not avoid Coe in the 800m in 78. They both could have stuck to their best events going in to Moscow, and would each have expected to easily win a gold each.
In 82, they would have raced each other at least 8 or 9 times not including heats if Ovett hadn't impaled his leg and Coe hadn't developed glandular fever. They had agreed to a series of races at different distances, and they both would have faced each other in the 800 and 1500 at the Commonwealth Games AND the European Championships.
Ovett didn't duck Cram when they raced at Crystal Palce after Helsinki and the week after Ovett had broken the WR again. Coe didn't duck Cram in 85 when he was below his best and Cram was in the form of his life.
Imagine if Jakob had skipped the 1500m in Paris and just ran the 5000m, and then boasted that he would have won easily if he had taken part, and that Hocker's victory was hollow? That's what Aouita did in LA, and again in Rome 1987.
Coe and Ovett had duels that will be remembered in another 100 years. Aouita NEVER faced any of the Brits at their peak in a major championships other than in 1983 when he was new. Aouita NEVER ran against Coe once. Thats' way more ridiculous than Coe and Ovett rarely racing.
As far as Aouita and the motivation behind the Golden League is concerned, I posted a link here several years ago with a reference to that.
There was no way to double in the 1500 and 5,000 in 1984 or 1987, given the schedules:
They only dodged each other. Bayi and Walker did the same thing.
Walker has not dodged anybody. And I don't think Bayi did.
Coe and Ovett did.
After the 1974 Commonwealth, I don’t believe they raced again until they were no longer 1-2 in the world. Bayi became sick with malaria in 1976 and Walker was smoked by Ovett in 1977. They later ran against each other in some meaningless indoor miles and that was about it.
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