Getting runners to RUN instead of shuffling

this being the same manbearpig15 who called SML a "joke" for WINNING a race in tights? what's your 400 PB compared to hers? It's not relevant if you had a valid point.

I never claimed to be the most fastest runner on this board. would it make a difference if I posted a 215 excercise physiologist who agreed with me?

i posted links to academic papers, or reporting on academic papers that says that

- you can't eyeball a runner and tell their running economy - literally no correlation

- mechanics matter but it's not dependent on visual technique, knee lift, shuffling or any of this other stuff

- there's no demonstrated causal link between drills and running economy and nobody knows technique's impact on injury prevention. some knowledgeable people think consciously changing technique is actually worse for injury

No one is actually refuting the substance of what i'm saying.

The whole premise of this thread is nonsense

Screen is really clear. Can see you've been a nember since 12/04/2008 and made 8,659 posts. Search I'm not sure, I guess as hit and miss as the rest of LRC.

Your first ever post:

THE OFFICIAL BEST ALBUMS OF 2008
Posted 15 years ago 12/04/2008
The best album released in the year 2008 was Death Magnetic by the American band Metallica.
If you don't think so, **** you!

Will have to give it a listen

I have been running for over 50 years and I no longer lift my knees or bend my legs like I used to. I have been reduced to a slow, stiff, weak and feeble racewalker stride

The reasons why I now 'run' like this are likely the same reasons why you have high school kids running like this.

Reasons include lack of muscle strength, power, explosiveness and flexibility.

Check their standing vertical jump. Running fast is a series of small jumps put together. If they have a low vertical jump they will have a short stride.

Check their balance and general athleticism. If they are unsteady on the ground they will be reluctant to be airborne while running.

Check flexibility especially ankle flexibility.

Kids that lived a sedentary lifestyle, especially if overweight, are not suddenly going to develop the strength and power by running distance. You get kids that come out for xc that have never played any sport, and been remotely athletic, before. Distance may only result in them shuffling even more, or shuffling at the same speed more efficiently.

Work on very short sprints (< 10 seconds) both uphill and also some downhill (on soft but stable surface) emphasizing good form, explosiveness and quickness (short ground contact time).

Do drills including bounding, skipping, jumps, plyometrics.

Work on flexibility especially dynamic flexibility.

Recognize that you might not be able to improve their form or even XC time during a season or even 4 years of high school. Running form is not everything.

Ensure you know and understand the motivation behind why every runner on your team is participating, and tailor their program so they experience what they want as improvement and success.

Haha, oh to be a college age again thanks.

The guy that started the thread didn't say anything about "consciously changing technique." Those are your words. One of the articles that you posted actually says that there is strong evidence that plyometrics and strength training can improve running economy. You don't seem very smart, though, so you probably didn't notice that. High knees, A-skips, and various other drills ARE strength training for kids with low general athleticism. If done with high intensity, they're also a good introduction to plyometric-type movements.

"Shuffling" maybe isn't the right focus, but helping kids that are new to sports develop athleticism is a great use of time. I don't know what you're on about with not "making" kids do anything. I also "make" my kids do a cooldown and "allow" newer runners to walk a bit--ie, I say "walk your cooldown instead of running." What happens if I see someone walking when they're not "allowed?" I tell them "take a little break if you need it then get back to running when you're ready" or I check in with them, depending on what seems right for the specific kid or situation. It seems like you maybe had some bad coaches, but I promise not every coach is out to hurt kids.

If Mr.E cannot coach a runner from 27:59 to 26:59 after one year, he’s not really a good coach.

your post is mostly reasonable and I agree with a lot of it. you decided to attack me but much of what you've said is actually aligned with what i've been saying.

- "shuffling maybe isn't the right focus". this is the shuffling thread. it's in the title. It that was literally made by a coach trying to "fix technique" [his words not mine]. It got loads of insane replies about trying to fix technique

- yes strength and plyos probably marginally help running economy, but not compared to actually running. and i don't know where you got 'strong' evidence without strong confounding factors - I saw a lot of qualifying words around it.

- you aren't wrong about drills can be a form of those types of training. you're just missing the point that the whole premise of the thread and early answers is to use drills 'fix technique'. they're a waste of time at the best of times and especially for the people in question. They absolutely not the answer for kids stagnating at 27 minutes for years under this coach

- your comments about encouraging kids have a totally different emphasis to the OP being a big meanie, no idea why you're hopping in to defend him

- i'm a real dumb dumb though you got that right at least

Hi. I shuffle. In this video you can see me running with terrible shuffling form from abt 1:58 to 2:07. I'm pretty obvious as I have no knee lift/leg kick back, flamingo shorts, and a really high cadence.

I've done 17:12 for three mile this year which, while not that fast for a hs boy, is flying compared to a 27 minute 5k. The problem is absolutely solvable. You can get way faster with consistent miles, grit, and hard work. My one major gripe is that I trained so hard over the summer and went all in with xc just to see people who ran as many miles over the whole summer as I did in a week fly by me in practice and races.

Yeah what coach in the world actually cares about doing his job honnestly with the lesser quarter of his team?

I for one think you are onto something. I my opinion formidable through discussion with actual phisios, an apparently suboptimal form could be the result of muscular imballances. The problem is the instinct compensates for these imballances in a way that might not correct them in the long run.

For instance, if you have week hip flexors, driving the knees might feel uncomfortable very quickly. As a consequence you shuffle, which makes milage worsenning the imballance.

I am a benevolent (but certified in case you care) coach in another sport requiring technical skills. I respect a lot your attitude with this. There is a place for "whatever works" at some point, but there's also a point where you don't want to let bad habits install.

As a runner i'm certainly not a fast one. Actually i'm barely faster than your girls. Yet i'm an experiment of one and maybe relatable to them. I recently played with the idea of knee drive. In slighly downhill portion, it's crazy how this produces an automatic and effortless acceleration, which as far as i can tell can be sustained and result in faster paces for the same effort in these circumstances. This smouth downhill thing might be not very usefull for track, but for XC, they might gain some seconds. It could also help motivate them to keep the knee drive in mind and maybe try it also on the flatter or slight uphills. As far as i can tell it also helps for pace vs effort, but as my hip flexors aren't very good compared to my hip extensors, driving the knees constantly quickly becomes uncomfortable and even painfull in longer sessions/races. As i'm old enough and i'm convinced it will help, i decided for myself to do some specific strengthening. I think you will need to have them really be convinced the knee drive is a (can't say "the" if your honnest) key to their progression and help them correcting the potential imballance that makes the knee drive thing more uncomfortable for them than a shuffle if you really want them to correct their form.

Now i'm not a running coach. I am not 100% sure the pace vs effort gains are real. I am convinced enough to experiment on myself and i sort of progressed more in the latest mounths than in the 5 previous (there also have been a bit more consistency in training to be honnest), but would not be confident enough to go all in on that with a team. You're the coach, you décidé if that makes sense in your situation.

Keep up the good work of doing your best with all of your team.

As a shuffler who has been trying to fix that, this was really helpful, thank you. Tested it out during a workout today and it was feeling like an improvement.

OP, the other thing that has been working for me is, when pushing off the ground, thinking of it as trying to grab some pebbles with my toes and fling them backwards.

I do think it can be worth fixing the shuffling--I've noticed that when running at anything faster than easy pace, I can go faster for the same amount of effort (heart rate) if I'm not shuffling than if I'm lapsing back into shuffle mode.

great post. what core exercises would you recommend if you don't mind my asking?

To run, this guy shuffled. He ran 2:41 at Chicago

https://www.instagram.com/richard_whitehead_mbe/p/C_yCqOyuy9T/

Well they probably aren't fast.

Just yesterday I remarked to a friend of mine how most high school kids don't know how to run. I see a lot of XC runners along the water in SF and their form across the board is pretty much terrible. I hadn't thought of this before.

I was remarking how a hobby jogger going the same pace usually looks to have much better form so it's not a question of pace.

I wasn't sure of the reason why. I think they may be stronger with a stronger core. Or is running form or perhaps I should say jogging form more of an acquired thing than I thought.