Hobbs Kessler - coaches blueprint for how to run an 800m PR

king999 wrote:

Sub-9:00 guy wrote:

I agree with your sentiment that both sub-3:30 and sub-7:30 are in the cards right now for Kessler, though he may not get the opportunity for those exact races. But it’s simply a matter of when, not if. He’s already there. FWIW, I do kind of wish he would just focus on the 800 this Olympic cycle. I get that he has a very outside shot at a medal in the 1500, but if he could really sharpen his speed and run the 800 on fresh legs, who really knows how fast he could run? He might shave another second.

I get the allure of liking Kessler as an 800M runner, I really do. But He is a 1500M runner first..The 1:43.x's are a by product of the training and circumstance, don't get carried away by what you saw and the watch, guys are not gonna drop tenths and tenths every race out which it would require just to make a final at 800. Even the rounds of the 15 might be fast, but that is his primary event right now. If he was in Monaco on the train, I think he could find 1.x to go sub 3:30, he is not in that for a really good reason. The 6 races in 10 days will tax anyone. Focus was always get to the Olympics at 1500, 800M was gravy, whether some like this or not. You gotta be able to run 1:42 mid to even factor in Games 800M final, not that the times might not be different .8 or more? is hard to find at this point I would think.

Sub-9:00 guy wrote:

king999 wrote:

I get the allure of liking Kessler as an 800M runner, I really do. But He is a 1500M runner first..The 1:43.x's are a by product of the training and circumstance, don't get carried away by what you saw and the watch, guys are not gonna drop tenths and tenths every race out which it would require just to make a final at 800. Even the rounds of the 15 might be fast, but that is his primary event right now. If he was in Monaco on the train, I think he could find 1.x to go sub 3:30, he is not in that for a really good reason. The 6 races in 10 days will tax anyone. Focus was always get to the Olympics at 1500, 800M was gravy, whether some like this or not. You gotta be able to run 1:42 mid to even factor in Games 800M final, not that the times might not be different .8 or more? is hard to find at this point I would think.

He is, perhaps, a 1:43.00 runner if he just focused purely on polishing speed and fresh. But, I take your point. He is a 1500 runner who can, perhaps, push from 800 out. He may not even make the final, so, yes, he will still have the 800. It simply would be *fun* to see what he could do on fresher legs for the two-lap event. But it would still require a perfect race and luck to factor.

I have to say you’ve been on HK from the very beginning and the most correct. I always hoped this kid could make championship teams and set ARs… now he is there.

king999 wrote:

Sub-9:00 guy wrote:

He is, perhaps, a 1:43.00 runner if he just focused purely on polishing speed and fresh. But, I take your point. He is a 1500 runner who can, perhaps, push from 800 out. He may not even make the final, so, yes, he will still have the 800. It simply would be *fun* to see what he could do on fresher legs for the two-lap event. But it would still require a perfect race and luck to factor.

I have to say you’ve been on HK from the very beginning and the most correct. I always hoped this kid could make championship teams and set ARs… now he is there.

Thanks for kind words

I have only known about him and been right on the talent level because Ron is close friend of mine.

To be fair I had never really heard of Kessler or talked about him, until Ron called me and said they were doing a workout the summer going into his Senior year and he was pacing a longer rep for VNTC guys at 3:07 for 1200 and he looked good enough to finish so Ron yelled to finish with last 400 he did in 60.x

Listen, when you have a guy who can run 1:43.64

3:31.51

7:39 two years and 4 months ago, surely can run 7:30 you would think now.

it is a lot to work with, especially when he can do so much stuff you don’t want to “break him “

Because he can do some amazing “sh-t” in practice

And he surely can.

The 1500m final will be very challenging to make . I figure you have to be an “able to run” sub 3:31.00 guy to even have a chance to make the final.

And unless luck at least a sub 3:30 guy to medal

Tactics and pace can help someone get a bit lucky, but there are too many good guys for that many to miss on same day.

Armstronglivs wrote:

king999 wrote:

Like I had said, all these last 800 results show, is that running the 800M only for Kessler would have been a huge mistake. Again, it's not the raw times run in a final, it is the real PR ability to get there. And then medal. I do not see anyone making the final who cannot run under 1:42.77, I use that because I think Hoppel can make the final regardless of other Prs, To medal, I think you need to be 1:42 flat or so capable, doesn't mean race will go like that, just have that ability.

You are correct. Raw times can show what is possible and especially in a race aimed to be as fast as possible. But each race has to be run on its own merits, according to the conditions and tactics being used - and that especially applies to championship races. No one sets out to run their fastest time; they run to win or at least place. So the "best" way or "correct' way to run that is the way that comes closest to achieving that. Versatility and adaptability help maximise those chances, not just speed and stamina - or running even-pace.

Truly bizarre wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

You are correct. Raw times can show what is possible and especially in a race aimed to be as fast as possible. But each race has to be run on its own merits, according to the conditions and tactics being used - and that especially applies to championship races. No one sets out to run their fastest time; they run to win or at least place. So the "best" way or "correct' way to run that is the way that comes closest to achieving that. Versatility and adaptability help maximise those chances, not just speed and stamina - or running even-pace.

No, the best runner in the field can control the race by leading wire to wire and is what, among others, Juantorena and Rudisha did. The 800m is forgiving of positive splits, and all the world records are a result of that strategy:

Link:www.runnerspace.com/news.php?news_id=1...

Sub-9:00 guy wrote:

king999 wrote:

I get the allure of liking Kessler as an 800M runner, I really do. But He is a 1500M runner first..The 1:43.x's are a by product of the training and circumstance, don't get carried away by what you saw and the watch, guys are not gonna drop tenths and tenths every race out which it would require just to make a final at 800. Even the rounds of the 15 might be fast, but that is his primary event right now. If he was in Monaco on the train, I think he could find 1.x to go sub 3:30, he is not in that for a really good reason. The 6 races in 10 days will tax anyone. Focus was always get to the Olympics at 1500, 800M was gravy, whether some like this or not. You gotta be able to run 1:42 mid to even factor in Games 800M final, not that the times might not be different .8 or more? is hard to find at this point I would think.

He is, perhaps, a 1:43.00 runner if he just focused purely on polishing speed and fresh. But, I take your point. He is a 1500 runner who can, perhaps, push from 800 out. He may not even make the final, so, yes, he will still have the 800. It simply would be *fun* to see what he could do on fresher legs for the two-lap event. But it would still require a perfect race and luck to factor.

I have to say you’ve been on HK from the very beginning and the most correct. I always hoped this kid could make championship teams and set ARs… now he is there.

TheRealScotty wrote:

Sub-9:00 guy wrote:

He is, perhaps, a 1:43.00 runner if he just focused purely on polishing speed and fresh. But, I take your point. He is a 1500 runner who can, perhaps, push from 800 out. He may not even make the final, so, yes, he will still have the 800. It simply would be *fun* to see what he could do on fresher legs for the two-lap event. But it would still require a perfect race and luck to factor.

I have to say you’ve been on HK from the very beginning and the most correct. I always hoped this kid could make championship teams and set ARs… now he is there.

As a 1:43.64 and 3:31.52 guy Kessler certainly SHOULD make the final. Not doing so would not be a failure as he is running against the world's best.

Problem for Kessler (and others) would be the abundance of talent in the field. If everyone runs what they are "capable of", he's got his hands full. I fully expect him to be in the Final. 65% probability.

TheRealScotty wrote:

Sub-9:00 guy wrote:

He is, perhaps, a 1:43.00 runner if he just focused purely on polishing speed and fresh. But, I take your point. He is a 1500 runner who can, perhaps, push from 800 out. He may not even make the final, so, yes, he will still have the 800. It simply would be *fun* to see what he could do on fresher legs for the two-lap event. But it would still require a perfect race and luck to factor.

I have to say you’ve been on HK from the very beginning and the most correct. I always hoped this kid could make championship teams and set ARs… now he is there.

As a 1:43.64 and 3:31.52 guy Kessler certainly SHOULD make the final. Not doing so would not be a failure as he is running against the world's best.

Problem for Kessler (and others) would be the abundance of talent in the field. If everyone runs what they are "capable of", he's got his hands full. I fully expect him to be in the Final. 65% probability.

TheRealScotty wrote:

Sub-9:00 guy wrote:

He is, perhaps, a 1:43.00 runner if he just focused purely on polishing speed and fresh. But, I take your point. He is a 1500 runner who can, perhaps, push from 800 out. He may not even make the final, so, yes, he will still have the 800. It simply would be *fun* to see what he could do on fresher legs for the two-lap event. But it would still require a perfect race and luck to factor.

I have to say you’ve been on HK from the very beginning and the most correct. I always hoped this kid could make championship teams and set ARs… now he is there.

As a 1:43.64 and 3:31.52 guy Kessler certainly SHOULD make the final. Not doing so would not be a failure as he is running against the world's best.

Problem for Kessler (and others) would be the abundance of talent in the field. If everyone runs what they are "capable of", he's got his hands full. I fully expect him to be in the Final. 65% probability.

Salvitore Stitchmo wrote:

As I was running yesterday I couldn't stop thinking about how insanely good the execution from Kessler in that 800m semi and how if I was coaching 800m runners, this would be exactly how I was advising them to construct and execute their races.

We all knew Kessler had a ton of talent but I can't be the only one that never thought I would see him run under 1.44 for 800m with even more to give. If he had never run faster than his 1.45.07 in LA earlier this year I would have thought that was a great PR for him - now it looks like he can run under 1.43...

But as we know, we have seen a massive shift behind the philosophy of race execution in the last 3-5 years. When I was growing up running the 8, there was a general consensus of how to chase times and it was modelled by the best in the sport at the time. Get out fast for position in the first 200, try and relax/recover in the second 200, hold/regain impetus in the 3rd 200 and hold on for dear life in the final 200. Every Golden League/top Grand Prix race was run this way and was no better epitomized when Kipketer smashed Coes WR in 1997 with one of the most absurd and impressive 800 meters ever run, when he split 23.1, 48.3 (25.2), 1.14.3 (26.0) 1.41.24 (26.9). So we all watched this and thought this was how we should be doing it.

But fast forward to the 2020's and the concepts of even pace running, staying as close to but never crossing your anaerobic threshold until the latest stages of a race are dominating certainly the 1500m and are now enabling awesome performance jumps in the 800m - and Kessler just gave an absolute masterclass on how to absolutely maximize your talent and ability through execution. He may never run a better one it was that good. Here is what I saw.

1) Opening 200m gives insight into if someone has a strategy or not. Very telling - it was clear he had a plan and so many don't and you can tell. A handful of guys want to be at the front of the race and make sure they are no matter what. Kessler didn't, he made a conscious decision to do his own thing in that first quarter. When you watch the race a lot of guys got out hard but were never committed to the front of the race so awkwardly slotted in to the mid pack. If you watch Kessler though, it appears he makes a conscious effort to be hitting his race rhythm and form after only 50m of the race. I looked at him and thought "he could be running the back straight here". He got relaxed as early as possible - almost 150m meters before the rest of the field does!

2) It's a little thing but the front on view at the 200m mark is telling. The field has converged to their pack positions as early as 150m into the race so they haven't run the shortest distance they could have. Kessler though runs on a direct line from his break to the 200m point and even though he doesn't hit lane 1 there (because of the pack) he has still run the shortest distance even if it's ever so slightly more than 200m. He crosses 200m in 25.1-25.2 (25.24 according to the official splits) and I'd guess those two 100m segments were dead even. No spikes in lactic acid, no dipping into the reserves - just great discipline. Who else famously runs this exact way in the opening 200/300m of races? Ingebrigtsen.

3) 200-400m and this is one of the best parts of his race. Some might say "but he passed on the curve you should never do that" and in a perfect world no. But clearly a race with 8 other guys isn't a perfect scenario for that and you can absolutely mess up making a move on the straight as Whitmarsh shows us in the home straight of this race as he has to slow down, move out, accelerate and by the time he finds position the field moves and he loses it all within another 100m. So Kessler moves around the field in this next 200m but why was this so good? Because all he did was simply maintain his momentum and his rhythm that he built up in the first 200. So whereas the pack got out quick then slowed in the second 200 (running the "old" consensus way) he just maintains his speed and form. Yes he runs slightly more than 200m in this quarter too but he's got to 400m in 51.3 going 25.2/26.1 and because of the added distance his pace hasn't really slowed a lot. The benefit of that physiologically, far outweighs running a slightly shorter distance with changes in pace.

4) So now he has got halfway through this race in the most efficient fashion possible. Nothing is really tough for him from here which is why he made it look so easy. His next 4 100m splits were 13.3, 13.0, 13.1, 13.0. For the entire race the variance in his 100m splits was exactly one second but even this probably was less because they credit him with a 12.3 opening back straight 100m but this is hard to tell where exactly to start that due to the 800m start and the break line. I think it is more likely his range was between 12.5 and 13.3 for the entire race. That is absurd and yet so optimal. He's run at least 680-700m of this race well below his anaerobic threshold - that's why he looks like he is just jogging up the home straight under zero duress.

Overall 800m masterclass tips from what we saw from Kessler:

1) The first 200m is more important than we think. Have a clear plan and be disciplined to stick to it.

2) Get into your "middle race" cruising form and rhythm as soon as you possibly can

3) Taking your time to move into position (ie. moving up through a field) is fine - even if it means doing so on the curve. An even, smooth effort is far better than trying to cram it into the 80 or so meters of a straightaway where a sharp acceleration/dramatic positioning move is likely needed.

4) Just like the 1500m, try and run as even as you can down to the 100m splits. Position after 200m means almost nothing, the nature of the race will mean you can always get to your spot if you are committed to what you are doing.

I couldn't be more impressed with that run - could be great coaching and advice from Warhurst/Willis, could also have just been totally random the way it played out (doubtful but possible) - either way that is exactly how you maximize your physical gifts over 2 laps. Coaches take note.